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翻译：hardstick 校订：hardstick 时间轴：hardstick
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'One of the greatest issues invoked by the life of Lyndon Baines Johnson:
“林登·贝恩斯·约翰逊一生中引发的最大问题之一：
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The relationship between means and ends.
手段和目的之间的关系。
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No question is more important than that.'
没有比这更重要的问题了。”
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I love those books. I love those books.
我喜欢那些书。我喜欢那些书。
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I don't know an author that's so beloved in such a weird,
cult-y kind of way.
我不知道有哪位作家会以一种如此奇怪、狂热的方式，受到如此喜爱。
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I think about Robert Caro
and reading The Power Broker back when I was 22 years old.
我想起了罗伯特·卡罗，想起了我22岁时读的《权力掮客》。
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And just being mesmerized.
我简直是被迷住了。
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I'm sure it helped to shape how I think about politics.
我确信，这本书有助于塑造我对政治的看法。
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It is 46 years old,weighs nearly 4 pounds in paperback,
and is about as ill-suited for the Internet age as they come.
这本书有46年的历史，平装本重近4磅，与即将到来的互联网时代，格格不入。
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达娜.鲁宾斯坦，《纽约时报》记者
The book is not even available for digital readers,
and yet in certain circles,
这本书甚至没有电子版，但在某些圈子里，
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The Power Broker has become a breakout star of the COVID-19 era.
《权力掮客》已经成为“新冠疫情时代”的一颗新星。
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It's a credential in a way, right? It's a credential,
这在某种程度上是一种凭证，对吧？这是一种凭证，
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that they know what they're talking about
because they have at the very least
证明他们知道，自己在说什么，因为他们至少
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read this book, or at the very least know
that they should have read this book.
读过这本书，或者至少知道，他们应该读这本书。
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He does this incredible work of reminding us
how the world is really built
他做了一件不可思议的工作，提醒我们世界是如何构建的，
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丽莎.卢卡斯，万神殿出版社出版人
and how power changes all of our lives.
以及权力是如何改变我们所有人的生活的。
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If we understand power and we understand what power does
如果我们理解了权力，理解了这种权力
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to people who don't have it,then maybe we can imagine a better future.
对无权力的人们的影响，也许我们就能想象一个更美好的未来。
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Hi.
嗨。
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- I've heard you've edited a book or two. - Or three.
-我听说你编辑过一两本书。 -或者是三本。
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So I'm wondering if you can find any of them in this massive collection.
所以，我想知道，你能否在这个庞大的藏书中，找到其中的任何一本。
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They'll be everywhere.
它们到处都有。
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- Okay. - You know, I'm still at it.
-好的。 -你知道，我还在做这项工作。
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Bob Gottlieb is a superb editor.
鲍勃·戈特利布是一位出色的编辑。
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He was the young superstar in publishing.
他当年，可是出版界年轻的“超级明星”。
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Bob Gottlieb is the most important American editor
and publisher of the postwar period.
鲍勃·戈特利布是美国战后最重要的编辑和出版人。
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He was like the Dumbledore of publishing.
他就像出版界的“邓布利多”。
（《哈利.波特》中的魔法学校校长）
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So about how many books have you edited?
你编辑过多少本书？
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I'd say a rough guess would be between 600 and 700.
我想，大概在600到700本之间。
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Six hundred and 700!
600到700本书！
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I never had a more important professor in language and literature
我从来没有遇到过，比他更重要的语言和文学教授了，
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in capturing in words human experiences and feelings than Bob Gottlieb.
有谁比鲍勃·戈特利布，更善于用语言表达人类的经历和感受。
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He could see any blob of clay and imagine it a statue,
他能看到任何一团粘土，把它想象成一尊雕像，
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比尔.克林顿总统
and he would help you figure out that and chisel your way to victory.
他会帮你弄清楚，然后凿出你通往胜利的道路。
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So when I realized how long he'd worked with Caro,
所以，当我意识到，他和卡罗是长期合作的时候，
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I thought,
'Dear God,if I just had a transcript of all their conversations.'
我想，“天哪，要是我有一份，他们所有谈话的文字记录就好了。”
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My father, Robert Gottlieb,
has been working with Robert Caro for over 50 years.
我的父亲，罗伯特·戈特利布，和罗伯特·卡罗一起工作了50多年。
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They are now on the brink of finishing their final collaboration.
他们现在，即将完成最后一次合作。
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I asked them if I could film them
as they worked together on their last book.
我问他们，我能不能拍摄下他们，一起完成他们的最后一本书的过程。
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They both said no.
他俩都说不行。
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They said the work between a writer and editor is too private
for anyone else to see.
他们说，作家和编辑之间的工作太过私密，不能让其他人看到。
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Slowly, they have relented.
慢慢地，他们的态度软化了。
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A little.
一点点。
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- Are you comfortable? - I'm so comfortable.
-你坐得舒服吗？ -我太舒服了。
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- In your sweatpants? - You don't want them?
-穿着你的运动裤？ -你不想让我穿它们吗？
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- You want me to change? - I do, I love those sweatpants.
-你要我换掉吗？ -是的，我喜欢你的运动裤。
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Okay.
好吧。
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We really quarreled over you doing this film.
我们为你拍这部电影，吵了一架。
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That wasn't a quarrel.
那不算是吵架。
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If it had been a quarrel,I wouldn't be doing it.
如果是吵架，我就不会这么做了。
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- It was a resistance. - I'm allowed to resist.
-这是一种抵触。 -我是可以反抗的。
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- But I wore you down. - You did. Your charming smile did it.
-但我让你产生抵触了。 -就是你。是你那迷人的微笑。
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- Are we now doing it? Is it happening? - It's happening right now.
-我们现在进行了吗？这就要演了？ -现在就开演吧。
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Robert Caro was even more resistant than my father.
罗伯特·卡罗比我父亲更抵触。
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But eventually he agreed to talk to me about their relationship.
但最终，他同意和我谈谈，他们的关系。
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So sometimes when we have our worst fights...
所以有时候，我们吵架的时候...
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I have to make myself remember all the things that he's done.
我必须让自己记住，他所做的一切。
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So Bob Caro is enthusiastic about the filming.
所以，鲍勃·卡罗， 他对拍摄充满热情。
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- Right, which is great. - Which is great.
-这就对了，这样很好。 -这很好。
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However, he does not...
然而，他没有...
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He refuses to be interviewed in the same room as you.
他拒绝和你同处一室，接受采访。
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- Who could blame him? - Why do you think that is?
-谁能把他怎么样？ -你觉得，这是为什么？
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He's Bob Caro. I don't know why.
他就是卡罗。 我不知道为什么。
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Do I try to understand his motivation? No.
我要试着去理解他的动机吗？ 我才不呢。
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My job is to help him do what he wants to do.
我的工作是，帮助他做，他想做的事。
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They're two New York City guys...Geniuses, really.
他们就是两个纽约市民...两个天才,真的。
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凯西.霍瑞根，Knopf图书出版社总编辑
For whom work is central.
对他们来说，工作是中心。
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凯西.霍瑞根，Knopf图书出版社总编辑
Two guys, the best in their field.
两个人，他们各自的领域里最好的。
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Bob Caro, the greatest political writer-thinker of our time.
鲍勃·卡罗，我们这个时代最伟大的政治作家和思想家。
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Bob Gottlieb,the greatest editor of his time,
central to the literature of our time.
鲍勃·戈特利布，他那个时代最伟大的编辑，对我们这个时代的文学至关重要。
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Do you think you and my father are alike?
你觉得，你和我父亲很像吗？
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Oh, he would hate to think he was like me.
他肯定不愿意觉得，他自己跟我一样。
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林恩.内斯比特，文学经纪人
- Have you spent much time with them? - No.
-你和他们在一起的时间多吗？ -不多。
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林恩.内斯比特，文学经纪人
I don't think the two of them spend much time together
unless they're editing.
我觉得他们俩很少在一起，除非他们在进行编辑。
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So it's at times contentious,as I understand.
所以据我所知，这有时是有争议的。
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I've never been in the room,thank God, when it's happened,
感谢上帝，当事情发生时，我从未在房间里，
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but I've heard, from each of them,that it has been.
但我从他们每个人那里听说，事情已经发生了。
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大卫.雷姆尼克，《纽约客》杂志总编
They're now both in their 80s,and I think they're still speaking.
他们现在都80多岁了，我想他们还会说出来的。
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And I think if you held their hands to the fire,despite all the battles,
我想，如果你把他俩的手放在火上，尽管经历了所有的挣扎，
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they would each say that one of the great satisfactions
of their extraordinary careers
他们都会说，在他们非凡的职业生涯中，最大的满足感之一，
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is the relationship between the two of them.
就是他们两人之间的关系。
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The two of you have been working on this project for 40 years.
你们俩在这个项目上，工作了40年。
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However long, yeah.He does the work, I do the cleanup.
不管多久，没错。他总是“干活”的，我负责“打扫”。
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Then we fight.
然后，我们就吵架。
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In the case of Bob and Bob,you have two titanic personalities.
在鲍勃和鲍勃的例子中，你们会看到，有两个巨大的个性。
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丹尼尔.门德尔松，作家兼评论家
That's gonna be an interesting...
那将是一个有趣的...
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丹尼尔.门德尔松，作家兼评论家
exercise of power.
权力行使。
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片名：翻开每一页
——罗伯特.卡罗和罗伯特.戈特利布的历险记
翻译：hardstick 校订：hardstick 时间轴：hardstick
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由利兹.戈特利布制作的电影
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- Susan, I'll be right there. - We're movie-making.
-苏珊，我马上过去。 -我们在拍电影。
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- How are you? We're movie-making! - Hello, Susan.
-你好吗？我们电影制作！ -你好，苏珊。
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- What? - Oh, my God, that's so beautiful.
-什么? -哦，天啊，太漂亮了。
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Okay.
好吧。
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I have to spend a good part of the middle of December
working on my Bill Gates book.
我不得不花12月中旬的大部分时间，做我的比尔·盖茨的书。
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My father is turning 90 this year.
我父亲今年90岁了。
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I need an extra daughter. Why did I only have one?
我还需要一个女儿。为什么我只有一个？
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And you know what?
你猜怎么着？
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If I had two daughters,I could have two sons-in-law.
如果我有两个女儿，我就可以有两个女婿了。
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- That's true. - Unlike King Lear, who said...
-没错。 -别像“李尔王”那样，他说...
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What does he say?
他说什么？
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'I'll creep upon those sons-in-law,
“我要爬到那些女婿身上，
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and kill, kill, kill, kill, kill.'
杀，杀，杀，杀。”
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That's right.
这就对了。
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When I was a kid,our house was always filled
with the writers my father published.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我们家总是挤满了，我父亲出版的作家们。
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They were part of our family.
他们是我们家的一部分。
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But for some reason, never Robert Caro.
但不知道为什么，罗伯特·卡罗的从来没有来过。
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I didn't meet Caro until my father's 80th birthday party.
直到我父亲80岁生日聚会时，我才见到了卡罗。
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I had always wondered about this mysterious relationship
that was and still is so central to my father's life.
我一直想知道，这种神秘的关系，它过去是，现在仍然是我父亲生活的核心。
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Fifty years, five books, 4,888 pages,and they're not finished yet.
五十年，五本书，4888页，他们还没有完成。
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I set out to make this film to try to understand something
about both these men and their work.
我开始制作这部电影，试图了解这帮人和他们的工作。
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Hi, Conan O'Brien.
嗨，我是柯南·奥布莱恩。
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- What's that? - I think he wants you to come towards me.
-这是怎么回事？ -我想，他是要你靠我近点儿。
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And I wasn't the only one in pursuit.
我不是唯一一个，要追求真相的人。
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Wonderful. Thank you, guys.
很好。谢谢二位。
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This isn't your world, is it?
这不是你的圈子，对吧？
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柯南.奥布莱恩
It is no secret, Mr. Caro,that I have pursued you.
卡罗先生，我一直在“追捕”你，这已不是什么秘密了。
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You are the white whale to my Ahab.
对我这个“亚哈船长”来说，你就是那条白鲸。
（《白鲸记》中那个执着的船长）
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And tonight I have cornered you and there's no getting away.
今晚，我把你逼得“走投无路”了。
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Tonight, no one is allowed to ask this man:
今晚，没有人可以问这个人：
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'When is the next Lyndon Johnson book coming out?'
“下一本林登·约翰逊的书，什么时候出版？”
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I forbid that question.
我禁止那样的问题。
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I talked to a friend of mine.
我跟一个朋友谈过了。
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He said, 'Well, you're gonna be speaking at a temple,
so you should use the phrase dayenu.'
他说，“好吧，你要在犹太教堂里演讲，所以你应该用dayenu这个词。”
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Dayenu means 'it would have been enough.'
Dayenu的意思是“足够我们享用了”。
（希伯来语，犹太逾越节唱歌的歌名）
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And I maintain,
had he just written The Power Broker,it would have been enough.
我始终认为，他刚写了《权力掮客》，那就是“足够我们享用了”。
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Had he just written Path to Power,it would have been enough.
如果他刚写了《权力之路》，那也就是“足够我们享用了”。
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Had he written any single one of these books, dayenu, okay?
如果他写了这些书中任何一本，dayenu，对吗？
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Dayenu.
足够我们享用了。
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We will get this next book
when he's damn well ready to give it to us and not until then.
等到他准备好给我们的时候，我们才会拿到下一本书。
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So I keep here...
所以，我一直在这里...
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Every day I write down how many words I wrote that day.
每天我都记下了，当天写了多少字。
133
00:09:42,634 --> 00:09:45,934
- Can we see? - You can.
-我能看一眼吗？ -你当然可以。
134
00:09:46,801 --> 00:09:48,667
Well, actually, no.
好吧，其实，没啥。
135
00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:53,084
They're notes to myself,of exhortation, or whatever.
它们是写给我自己的，劝诫之类的。
136
00:09:54,867 --> 00:09:57,293
So that's what we got to date.
这就是我们目前得到的。
137
00:10:00,617 --> 00:10:05,001
- Is that the only copy? - No, I'm a newspaper man.
-就这一份吗？ -不，我是干记者的。
138
00:10:05,084 --> 00:10:13,334
So every time I put a piece of paper in the typewriter,
I put a carbon and another piece in.
所以，每次我往打字机里放一张纸，我就放一张复写纸，夹在另一张纸上。
139
00:10:13,418 --> 00:10:17,625
So at the end of the day,I take home the carbon.
所以，在一天结束的时候，我把复写纸带回家。
140
00:10:17,709 --> 00:10:23,418
And there's a space over the refrigerator.I just throw it in.
冰箱上方有一个空间。我只是把它放了进去。
141
00:10:27,109 --> 00:10:31,126
I have to say something about how I chose your father.
我得说说，我选择你父亲的原因。
142
00:10:31,209 --> 00:10:32,876
I think it was 1970.
我记得，那是在1970年。
143
00:10:32,959 --> 00:10:38,167
I had spent seven years working on this book,and everybody said to me:
我花了七年时间写这本书，每个人都对我说：
144
00:10:38,251 --> 00:10:40,876
'Nobody's going to read a book about Robert Moses.'
“没人会读一本关于罗伯特·摩西的书。”
145
00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:44,076
罗伯特.摩西（1888 - 1981）纽约市政总工程师
146
00:10:44,659 --> 00:10:47,334
So I figured, I better get an agent.
所以我想，我最好找个经纪人。
147
00:10:47,418 --> 00:10:52,126
林恩.内斯比特，文学经纪人
Here I was from the Midwest.I'd never heard of Robert Moses.
我来自中西部。我从来没听说过罗伯特·摩西这个人。
148
00:10:52,209 --> 00:10:53,876
I mean, barely.
我是说，几乎没有听说过。
149
00:10:53,959 --> 00:10:59,042
And I took a huge chunk of the manuscript home,
and I was completely spellbound.
我把一大摞手稿带回了家，我完全被迷住了。
150
00:10:59,126 --> 00:11:03,126
Lynn, you're an agent for authors and would-be authors.
林恩，你是作家和准作家的经纪人。
151
00:11:03,209 --> 00:11:06,168
What is your dream with the book that you have?
你对这本书的梦想，是什么？
152
00:11:06,251 --> 00:11:09,792
My dream is that it will get a certain public,
我的梦想是，它会得到一定数量的受众，
153
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and that it will enhance the writer's reputation.
这将提高作者的知名度。
154
00:11:12,750 --> 00:11:16,334
Every author is different,which is one of the great joys of our business.
每个作者都不一样，这是我们这个行业最大的乐趣之一。
155
00:11:16,418 --> 00:11:21,376
She said something really nice about the book
and said she'd like to represent me.
她说了几句关于这本书的好话，还说，她愿意做我的代理。
156
00:11:22,917 --> 00:11:27,126
She said,'But you have to tell me something.Why do you look so worried?'
她说：“但你必须告诉我一些事情。你怎么看起来这么着急？”
157
00:11:27,667 --> 00:11:31,709
And I said,
'I don't know where I'm gonna get the money to finish the book.'
我说，“我不知道哪来的钱，来完成这本书。”
158
00:11:31,792 --> 00:11:34,542
I knew I had about three more years to go on it.
我知道，我还可以再坚持三年。
159
00:11:34,625 --> 00:11:39,084
And Lynn said to me,'You can stop worrying right now.
林恩对我说：‘你现在可以不用担心了。
160
00:11:39,168 --> 00:11:43,126
I can get you that by just picking up this telephone.'
我只要拿起这个电话，就能帮你找到。”
161
00:11:43,209 --> 00:11:49,917
She said, 'But my job is to find you an editor
that you can work with the rest of your life.'
她说，“但我的工作是，给你找一个，可以共事一辈子的编辑。”
162
00:11:50,001 --> 00:11:53,959
So she said what she was gonna do was set up...
所以她说，她要做的是安排...
163
00:11:55,709 --> 00:11:59,334
I think there were four lunches in the next week with four editors,
在接下来的一个星期里，我和四位编辑共进了四次午餐，
164
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who, as it turns out,I now know were all famous editors.
我现在知道，他们都是著名的编辑。
165
00:12:03,168 --> 00:12:06,126
Three of the editors took me to lunch at the Four Seasons
三个编辑带我去四季酒店吃的午餐，
166
00:12:06,209 --> 00:12:09,251
and told me basically they could make me a star,
告诉我，他们差不多可以让我成为文坛新星，
167
00:12:09,334 --> 00:12:10,876
which I wasn't interested in.
我对此并不感兴趣。
168
00:12:12,625 --> 00:12:15,293
The fourth one was Bob Gottlieb,
第四位是鲍勃·戈特利布，
169
00:12:15,376 --> 00:12:20,209
and he didn't go out for lunch,so we ordered sandwiches at his desk.
他没有出去吃午餐，所以，我们是在他的办公桌边，点了份儿三明治。
170
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Robert Gottlieb is both president and editor-in-chief
of Alfred A. Knopf publishing house.
罗伯特·戈特利布是“阿尔弗雷德·A·克诺夫”出版社的总裁兼主编。
171
00:12:26,584 --> 00:12:30,168
Have you ever had the experience as a publisher of reading something,
作为出版商，你是否有过这样的经历，读了一些东西后，
172
00:12:30,251 --> 00:12:32,251
turning it down for one reason or another,
因为这样或那样的原因，拒绝了它，
173
00:12:32,334 --> 00:12:35,584
and having that thing reappear as a great success elsewhere?
然后，它又在其他地方，重新获得了巨大的成功？
174
00:12:35,667 --> 00:12:38,126
- Oh, everybody's had that experience. - Is that a nightmare?
-哦，每人都会有这样的经历。 -那算是是噩梦吗？
175
00:12:38,209 --> 00:12:41,126
No, it isn't at all because I think if you're sensible,
不，根本不是，因为我认为，如果你是明智的，
176
00:12:41,209 --> 00:12:45,126
you remember that you turned it down because you didn't much like it,
你记得你拒绝它，是因为你不太喜欢它，
177
00:12:45,209 --> 00:12:47,792
and that if you had published it,not very much liking it,
如果你出版了它，不是很喜欢它，
178
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it probably would not have become a great success.
它大概率也不会取得巨大的成功。
179
00:12:50,951 --> 00:12:53,168
I can be very philosophical about that.
我现在，可以很哲学地，看待这个问题。
180
00:12:53,251 --> 00:12:57,584
I can't be very philosophical about books
I have published,knowing that they're wonderful,
我不能很哲学地看待我出版的书，明明知道它们很棒，
181
00:12:57,667 --> 00:13:00,917
only to see them become unsuccesses.
却只看到了，它们变得不成功。
182
00:13:01,001 --> 00:13:03,168
Fortunately,that doesn't happen all the time.
幸运的是，这种情况并不总是发生。
183
00:13:03,701 --> 00:13:06,709
Soon after I went to Alfred Knopf,
我入职“阿尔弗雷德·克诺夫”之后不久，
184
00:13:06,792 --> 00:13:09,418
my pal, the agent Lynn Nesbit,
我的朋友，出版经纪人林恩·内斯比特，
185
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:19,500
sent over to me this manuscript
which was about as high from here to here, literally.
给了我这份手稿，从这里到这里，都差不多这么高。
186
00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:27,834
Didn't take more than reading 15 pages
to know that it was, indeed,going to be a masterpiece.
读了不到15页，就知道，这其实，会是一部“杰作”。
187
00:13:27,917 --> 00:13:30,293
A word I do not throw around easily.
一个我从不轻易说的词儿。
188
00:13:30,376 --> 00:13:35,084
And he basically said something very complimentary about the book.
他基本上，对这本书是赞不绝口。
189
00:13:36,625 --> 00:13:41,917
He said, 'But it needs work,and here is what has to be done.'
他说，“但这需要加工，这是必须要做的。”
190
00:13:42,001 --> 00:13:43,792
So I, of course, picked him.
所以，我当然选了他。
191
00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:57,751
Editing is intelligent and sympathetic reaction to the text
and to what the author is trying to accomplish.
编辑，是对文本和作者想要实现的目标的，明智和共情的反应。
192
00:13:57,834 --> 00:14:01,293
Basically, it's expressing your reaction,
基本上，它表达了你的反应，
193
00:14:01,376 --> 00:14:10,542
and that works if the writer really understands
that you are in sympathy with what he or she is doing.
如果作者真的明白了，你对他或她所做的事情，表示出了共情，那就有效了。
194
00:14:11,084 --> 00:14:19,959
When you try to change something into something that it isn't,
rather than make it better of what it is,tragedy lurks.
当你试图改变某样东西，而不是让它变得更好的时候，悲剧就隐藏在那里了。
195
00:14:25,459 --> 00:14:27,459
哥伦比亚新闻学院
196
00:14:27,617 --> 00:14:31,084
Get ready for wisdom.It's heading your way.
准备迎接智慧吧。它朝你这边来了。
197
00:14:31,168 --> 00:14:34,293
I'm going to talk to you about the two things I really know,
我要跟你们谈谈，我真正了解的两件事，
198
00:14:34,376 --> 00:14:38,001
which are editing and publishing,which are very separate things.
那就是编辑和出版，这是非常独立的事情。
199
00:14:38,084 --> 00:14:43,959
If you're going to be a book editor or aspire to be one,
I can't teach it to you.
如果你打算成为一名图书编辑，或者渴望成为它，我无法教给你。
200
00:14:44,043 --> 00:14:47,959
First of all, you have to be a reader.
If you haven't been a reader,don't try to be an editor.
首先，你必须是一个读者。如果你没有当过读者，就不要试图当编辑。
201
00:14:48,043 --> 00:14:49,376
Why would you want to be?
你为什么想当？
202
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:52,500
And what editing is, is you read something,
编辑，就是你读到一些东西，
203
00:14:52,584 --> 00:15:00,460
and you have a sense,'Oh, if he did this, if she did that,
it would be better of what it is.'
你会有一种感觉，“哦，如果他这样做，如果她那样做，它会更好。”
204
00:15:01,001 --> 00:15:02,500
Publishing is essentially...
出版，从本质上讲...
205
00:15:02,584 --> 00:15:06,751
From the publisher's point of view,it's really very simple.
从发行商的角度来看，这真的很简单。
206
00:15:06,834 --> 00:15:11,126
It is making public your own enthusiasm.
它是公开你自己的热情。
207
00:15:11,209 --> 00:15:13,084
So here's a story.
这就有一个故事。
208
00:15:14,043 --> 00:15:17,709
You can't know what people are gonna be interested in.
你不知道，人们会对什么感兴趣。
209
00:15:18,251 --> 00:15:21,126
Bob Caro is the perfect example of this.
鲍勃·卡罗就是一个很好的例子。
210
00:15:21,209 --> 00:15:23,209
At some point in the early '70s,
在70年代早期的某个时候，
211
00:15:23,293 --> 00:15:28,126
I had signed on the book that eventually became The Power Broker,
我在一本书上签了名，这本书最终成为了《权力掮客》，
212
00:15:28,209 --> 00:15:30,626
the book about Robert Moses and New York City.
这本书是关于罗伯特·摩西和纽约市的。
213
00:15:30,709 --> 00:15:36,043
And although I grew up in New York City
and I'm a New Yorker and I love New York,
虽然我在纽约长大，我是一个纽约市民，我爱纽约，
214
00:15:36,126 --> 00:15:42,251
the story of Robert Moses was not one
that suggested a barrel full of laughs to me.
但罗伯特·摩西的故事，并没有让我开怀大笑。
215
00:15:42,335 --> 00:15:49,293
But, because Caro is such a genius at what he does,
it was instantly hailed as a classic.
但是，由于卡罗在他所做的事情上，是如此的天才，它立即被誉为经典。
216
00:15:49,376 --> 00:15:55,126
Little did we know that in his case,
Lyndon Johnson was looming on the horizon.
我们几乎不知道，就他而言，林登·约翰逊即将出现在地平线上。
217
00:15:55,209 --> 00:16:04,168
And Lyndon Johnson is still looming on the horizon because
he is now working on volume five of a three-volume biography.
林登·约翰逊仍然隐约可见，因为他现在正在写一本三卷本传记的第五卷。
218
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:13,542
And it's really an actuarial issue
as to whether he and I will survive to the end of this.
至于我和他是否能撑到最后，这真的是一个值得去“精算”的问题。
219
00:16:13,626 --> 00:16:17,876
Since I'm older than he is,I'm hoping that he'll be the survivor.
既然我比他大，我希望他能活下来。
220
00:16:18,834 --> 00:16:20,667
Because we need to see this thing finished.
因为，我们要看到这作品完成。
221
00:16:36,834 --> 00:16:40,542
- So you walk here in the mornings? - Yes. It's a great time.
-所以，你每天早上走路来这里？ -是的。这是一段美好的时光。
222
00:16:40,626 --> 00:16:44,043
You just think, you know.I used to run. I can't run anymore.
你只是去思考，你知道。我过去经常跑步。我跑不动了。
223
00:16:44,126 --> 00:16:47,709
That was my best time.How I really thought.
那曾是我最好的时光。我当时，真的就这么想。
224
00:16:47,792 --> 00:16:51,801
You know, it just started coming,the first few paragraphs or whatever.
你知道，它就这样开始出现了，开头的几个段落之类的。
225
00:16:52,509 --> 00:16:53,918
It's interesting.
很有意思的。
226
00:16:54,001 --> 00:16:55,918
The other morning, I looked around,
有一天早上，我环顾四周，
227
00:16:56,001 --> 00:17:01,542
every other person was doing something with a device,
每个人都在用电子设备做着什么，
228
00:17:01,626 --> 00:17:07,709
and I was walking along,thinking I'm really out of touch
with the modern age.
我走在旁边，觉得自己真的与现代脱节了。
229
00:17:09,801 --> 00:17:14,418
I write a lot of drafts, until it gets to a certain point,
on the typewriter...
我写了很多草稿，直到写到某一点，就敲在打字机上...
230
00:17:14,501 --> 00:17:18,084
On longhand,and then I go to the typewriter.
是手写的，然后我去敲打字机。
231
00:17:18,168 --> 00:17:20,751
It's not a fixed... It's not a fixed...
这不是固定的...这不是固定的...
232
00:17:21,701 --> 00:17:26,667
I'm typing, actually,
now the paragraphs I thought of when I was walking today.
实际上，我现在正在打我今天走路时，想到的段落。
233
00:17:29,501 --> 00:17:32,376
But they're not so good,so I'll probably throw it out.
但它们不太好，所以，我可能会把它扔掉。
234
00:17:37,293 --> 00:17:43,335
I never was interested in doing a book
just to tell the story of a great man.
我从来没有兴趣写一本书，只是为了讲述一个伟人的故事。
235
00:17:43,418 --> 00:17:50,542
I was always interested in trying to use that life
to show things about political power.
我一直对此很感兴趣，就是试图用他的生活，来展示关于政治权力的东西。
236
00:17:50,626 --> 00:17:58,584
We live in a democracy, so political power ultimately
is supposed to come from us,from the ballot box.
我们生活在一个民主国家，所以，政治权力最终应该来自我们，来自投票箱。
237
00:17:58,667 --> 00:18:03,918
So therefore, the more I could find out
about how political power really worked,
因此，我对政治权力的实际运作方式了解得越多，
238
00:18:04,001 --> 00:18:09,751
not how it worked in textbooks,
but how it really worked, then the more...
不是教科书上所说的，而是它的实际运作方式，我就越...
239
00:18:09,834 --> 00:18:16,085
If I could tell people about that in a way
that would make them understand it,
如果，我能以一种，让他们理解的方式告诉他们，
240
00:18:16,168 --> 00:18:18,793
then the better informed their votes would be.
那么，他们的投票，就会更知情。
241
00:18:19,118 --> 00:18:22,918
And then hopefully the better our democracy would be.
然后，我们的民主，就会变得更好。
242
00:18:26,401 --> 00:18:31,001
From the time he was a little boy,I think he wanted to be a writer.
从他还是个小男孩的时候起，我认为，他就想成为一名作家。
243
00:18:33,226 --> 00:18:35,584
He fell in love with books.
他钟情于书本。
244
00:18:36,035 --> 00:18:39,043
When he was young,people wanted to be writers.
他年轻的时候，人们都想成为作家。
245
00:18:40,293 --> 00:18:45,168
伊娜.卡罗，作家兼研究员，鲍勃.卡罗的妻子
Books really had an impact and could change things.
书籍确实有影响，可以改变一些事情。
246
00:18:45,251 --> 00:18:47,918
And if you don't feel that you can have an impact,
如果你觉得你不能产生影响，
247
00:18:48,001 --> 00:18:53,210
you wouldn't spend so much of your life and work so hard doing this.
你就不会花这么多时间，和这么努力地，去做这件事。
248
00:18:55,993 --> 00:18:59,043
Bob actually had a pretty rotten childhood.
鲍勃的童年，其实很糟糕。
249
00:18:59,693 --> 00:19:02,518
He wasn't allowed to have music in the house.
他不被允许，在家里放音乐。
250
00:19:02,718 --> 00:19:04,751
He couldn't bring friends home,
他不能带朋友回家，
251
00:19:05,335 --> 00:19:10,168
and his favorite place was going to the library and picking up a book.
他最喜欢的地方，就是去图书馆，选一本书读。
252
00:19:10,251 --> 00:19:13,542
He would bring the book to Central Park on the weekends,
他会在周末把书带到中央公园，
253
00:19:13,626 --> 00:19:16,542
and read it there all day long so he wouldn't have to go home.
在那里读一整天，这样他就不用回家了。
254
00:19:17,618 --> 00:19:22,335
You say that you did not grow up in a house of books
你说，你不是在一个书香门第长大的，
255
00:19:22,418 --> 00:19:26,959
and that was not part of something that was important to your dad.
这对你父亲来说，并不重要。
256
00:19:27,043 --> 00:19:29,959
Your mother became ill when you were quite young.
你母亲在你很小的时候，就生病了。
257
00:19:30,043 --> 00:19:32,626
Well, my mother got very sick when I was 5.
我5岁的时候，我妈妈病得很重。
258
00:19:32,709 --> 00:19:35,751
In those days, if you had breast cancer and it came back,
在那些日子里，如果你得了乳腺癌又复发了，
259
00:19:35,834 --> 00:19:39,876
there was very little... Nothing, really,that they could do for you.
几乎没有...真的，他们帮不上什么忙。
260
00:19:39,959 --> 00:19:43,001
So she died when I was 11.
她在我11岁的时候，去世了。
261
00:19:44,118 --> 00:19:47,918
My father... He spoke English. He came over here from Poland.
我的父亲...他说英语。他从波兰来到这里。
262
00:19:48,001 --> 00:19:53,335
He taught himself to write English
by copying out whole articles in The New York Times.
他通过抄写《纽约时报》上的整篇文章，自学英语。
263
00:19:53,418 --> 00:19:56,335
His language with his friends was Yiddish.
他和朋友们说的是，意第绪语。
（中、东欧的犹太人讲的方言）
264
00:19:56,418 --> 00:20:02,335
But before she died,my mother made him promise to send me
to the Horace Mann School.
但在我母亲去世之前，她让他答应，送我去霍勒斯·曼恩学校。
（纽约顶尖的私立走读大学预科学校，从幼儿园到高中部）
265
00:20:02,418 --> 00:20:08,834
And the Horace Mann School, therefore,
became,really,the center of my boyhood.
因此，霍勒斯·曼恩学校，真正成为了我童年的中心。
266
00:20:08,918 --> 00:20:14,709
Bob spent as much time there as he could.He never wanted to come home.
鲍勃在那里尽可能多地，呆在学校。他从不想回家。
267
00:20:14,793 --> 00:20:24,001
The few times that he brought somebody home with him,he was thoroughly
embarrassed by his father yelling at him or screaming at him.
有几次他带人回家，他父亲对他大吼大叫，让他感到非常尴尬。
268
00:20:24,085 --> 00:20:27,126
And it was really very hard on Bob.
这对鲍勃来说，真的很艰难。
269
00:20:32,501 --> 00:20:34,918
I met Bob at Princeton.
我是在普林斯顿，认识鲍勃的。
270
00:20:36,001 --> 00:20:40,043
This is the very moment that Ina and I met.
这就是我和伊娜相遇的时刻。
271
00:20:40,468 --> 00:20:43,542
I saw Ina dancing by with some guy,
我看到伊娜和一个男人跳舞经过，
272
00:20:43,626 --> 00:20:46,626
and I said, 'Why don't we take a picture with her?'
我说，“我们为什么不跟她合张影呢？”
273
00:20:46,709 --> 00:20:50,318
So I went down,and that's actually the moment we met.
于是，我就走了过去，我们就是在那一刻，认识的。
274
00:20:57,001 --> 00:21:03,043
I was a young reporter at Newsday,still doing very short stories.
我当时是《新闻日报》的一名年轻记者，还在写短篇小说。
275
00:21:03,126 --> 00:21:06,335
And we had a managing editor,Alan Hathway,
我们有一个总编辑，艾伦.哈斯韦，
276
00:21:06,418 --> 00:21:11,126
who really had a prejudice against people from prestigious universities.
他对出自名牌大学的人，有一种偏见。
277
00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:16,918
I went to Princeton, and they hired me
while he was on vacation as a joke on him.
我去了普林斯顿大学，他们在他度假的时候雇了我，作为一个针对他的玩笑。
278
00:21:18,918 --> 00:21:25,201
So he would walk by my desk every day on the way to his office
and he'd never talk to me.
所以，他每天去办公室的路上，都会经过我的办公桌，他从不和我说话。
279
00:21:25,284 --> 00:21:32,584
So this one day I had to go through a bunch of files
at a federal agency,and I wrote a long memo.
有一天，我要在一个联邦机构翻阅一堆文件，我写了一份很长的备忘录。
280
00:21:32,668 --> 00:21:36,751
And the next morning, very early,his secretary called me and said:
第二天一大早，他的秘书打电话给我说：
281
00:21:36,834 --> 00:21:38,876
'Alan wants to see you right away.'
“艾伦要马上见你。”
282
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,460
And all the way into the office,I was sure I was gonna be fired.
在进办公室的路上，我一直以为我要被解雇了。
283
00:21:42,835 --> 00:21:45,501
He waved me to a chair and he said:
他朝我挥手，让我坐到椅子上，说：
284
00:21:45,584 --> 00:21:52,335
'I didn't know someone from Princeton could go through files like this.
From now on, you do investigative work.'
“我不知道普林斯顿的人可以这样阅览文件。从现在起，你去做调查工作。”
285
00:21:52,418 --> 00:21:56,543
Well, I have great savoir faire at moments like this.
通常，在这种时刻，我都会保持很得体的。
286
00:21:56,626 --> 00:21:58,543
And what I said to him was:
猜我怎么对他说：
287
00:21:58,626 --> 00:22:01,709
'But I don't know anything about investigative work.'
“可我对调查工作，一窍不通啊。”
288
00:22:02,226 --> 00:22:08,043
And he looked up at me for what I remember as a very long time
他抬头看着我，我记得有很长一段时间，
289
00:22:08,126 --> 00:22:13,918
and said, 'Just remember one thing:turn every page.
然后说：“就记住一件事：翻开每一页。
290
00:22:14,001 --> 00:22:18,235
Never assume anything.Turn every goddamn page.'
不要做任何假设。就他妈地翻遍每一页。”
291
00:22:18,835 --> 00:22:21,835
《新闻日报》三人获奖
292
00:22:22,293 --> 00:22:25,043
罗伯特.卡罗获得尼曼奖学金
How did you come to write The Power Broker?
你是怎么开始写《权力掮客》的？
293
00:22:25,468 --> 00:22:28,335
I got more and more interested in politics.
我对政治，越来越感兴趣了。
294
00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:32,543
And I started to feel that that was what I wanted to write about:
我开始觉得，这就是我想写的东西：
295
00:22:32,626 --> 00:22:33,751
Political power.
政治权力。
296
00:22:33,835 --> 00:22:37,918
And it all started to come together for me in Robert Moses.
在罗伯特·摩西身上，这一切都开始为我聚集起来了。
297
00:22:38,326 --> 00:22:43,001
A power broker who built more public works
than anyone else in American history,
他是美国历史上，修建公共工程最多的权力经纪人，
298
00:22:43,085 --> 00:22:46,085
and imposed his will on governors and mayors in the process.
并在此过程中，将自己的意志，强加给历任州长和市长们。
299
00:22:46,168 --> 00:22:47,584
That was Robert Moses.
这人就是，罗伯特.摩西。
300
00:22:47,668 --> 00:22:51,335
Nobody in history has built like Robert Moses.
历史上没有人像罗伯特·摩西那样建造。
301
00:22:51,418 --> 00:22:54,543
No pharaoh of Egypt,no emperor, no king,
没有一个埃及法老，没有一个皇帝，没有一个国王，
302
00:22:54,626 --> 00:23:00,335
has ever built on the face of the Earth on the scale that this one human being did.
在地球上建造过如此规模的建筑，就像这个家伙所做的那样。
303
00:23:00,418 --> 00:23:03,835
You know, when you fly over New York and you look down,
你知道，当你飞过纽约，往下看，
304
00:23:03,918 --> 00:23:06,009
it's a landscape by Moses.
这是摩西的风景。
305
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:09,918
Power is supposed to come from being elected.
权力应该来自选举。
306
00:23:10,001 --> 00:23:13,127
But here was a man who was never elected to anything.
但这是一个，从未被选上任何职位的人。
307
00:23:13,210 --> 00:23:15,543
He had more power than anyone who was elected.
他比任何当选的人，都有更大的权力。
308
00:23:15,626 --> 00:23:18,918
He had more power than any mayor,more power than any governor,
他的权力比任何市长都大，比任何州长都大，
309
00:23:19,001 --> 00:23:22,168
more power than any mayor and governor put together.
比任何市长和州长加起来，都大。
310
00:23:22,252 --> 00:23:25,210
He held this power for 44 years.
他在位44年。
311
00:23:25,293 --> 00:23:27,127
So where did the power come from?
那么这种权力，是从哪里来的呢？
312
00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:31,751
It took Caro years and years to understand it,
卡罗花了很多年，才理解它，
313
00:23:31,835 --> 00:23:36,918
and no one suspected it was an invention of a way
to find power and use it.
没有人怀疑，这是一种寻找和使用权力的方法的发明。
314
00:23:37,001 --> 00:23:39,501
What Caro revealed was that
卡罗所揭示的是，
315
00:23:39,584 --> 00:23:42,835
Moses had built up this extraordinary empire
摩西建立了这个非凡的帝国，
316
00:23:42,918 --> 00:23:48,377
（史蒂文.约翰逊，作家） and influence over the city
out of this unusual institutional form of the public authority.
并通过这种不同寻常的公共权力机构，形式对城市产生了影响。
317
00:23:48,801 --> 00:23:52,751
Starting, really,with the Triborough Bridge Authority.
真是这样的，从三区大桥管理局时期，就开始这么干了。
318
00:23:52,835 --> 00:23:56,668
And that gave him access to the funds from the tolls.
这样，管理局给了他手段，就能从过路费中获得资金。
319
00:23:56,751 --> 00:24:03,335
Public authorities were just treated as something
that sold bonds to raise the money to build a bridge,
公共机构，只是被视为，出售债券来筹集资金建桥的某种“工具”，
320
00:24:03,419 --> 00:24:07,668
collect the tolls until they could pay off the bonds,
and then went out of business.
收取过路费，直到他们还清债券，然后就歇业。
321
00:24:07,751 --> 00:24:12,001
No one saw that they were a source of immense political power.
没有人看到，它们是巨大的政治权力的源泉。
322
00:24:12,827 --> 00:24:18,584
And so he literally built up this huge empire inside of New York City
所以，他在纽约市建立了一个庞大的“帝国”，
323
00:24:18,968 --> 00:24:21,018
out of nickels and dimes.
用的是，每5分和每10分的硬币。
324
00:24:25,093 --> 00:24:28,793
It was really important that people read this book.
让人们读到这本书，这真的很重要。
325
00:24:29,419 --> 00:24:34,168
And they weren't going to read a book on Robert Moses
他们不会去读一本关于罗伯特·摩西的书，
326
00:24:34,252 --> 00:24:37,001
unless right at the beginning,in the introduction,
除非在开篇，在引言中，
327
00:24:37,085 --> 00:24:42,335
I did something to make them understand how important he was,
我做了一些“加工”，让他们明白，这家伙有多重要，
328
00:24:42,419 --> 00:24:46,751
the scope of what he did,and how it affects everybody's lives.
摩西所做的事情的范围，以及他是如何影响每个人的生活的。
329
00:24:46,835 --> 00:24:52,751
So it's one thing to say
Robert Moses built 627 miles of expressways and parkways.
光说这一件事，罗伯特·摩西建造了627英里的高速公路和林荫大道。
330
00:24:52,835 --> 00:24:57,543
That's not going to get anyone to read the book.That's just a statistic.
那不会让任何人去读这本书。这只是一个统计数据。
331
00:24:57,626 --> 00:25:02,043
So at that point, I said,'Well, I remember The Iliad.'
就这样，我脱口而出，“好吧，我记得有本《伊利亚特》。”
332
00:25:02,127 --> 00:25:05,168
I'm not comparing myself with Homer,
我不是拿自己和《荷马史诗》比较，
333
00:25:05,252 --> 00:25:09,460
but a great book...Great writing can serve as a model.
但有这样一部伟大的著作...伟大的作品，是可以作为榜样的。
334
00:25:09,543 --> 00:25:14,002
And I said, 'Homer did it, you know,by just listing all the countries.'
我说，“荷马曾这么做，你们都知道，他正是列出了所有的国家。”
335
00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:16,543
There was something... Real power in that.
有某种东西...真正的力量，就在那里。
336
00:25:16,626 --> 00:25:19,335
And the names of the ships,real power in that.
还有那些船的名字，这才是真正的力量。
337
00:25:19,419 --> 00:25:22,584
I said,'I'll just try listing all these roads.'
我说：“我试着列出，所有这些市政道路的名字。”
338
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:28,460
I said, 'Well, that's better,but it's really nothing yet.'
我说，“好吧，这样好多了，但还真的没什么。”
339
00:25:28,543 --> 00:25:33,460
Said, 'What can you do?' So I said,'Maybe I can do it with rhythm.'
有人会问：“你能做什么？”那么我说，“也许我可以用韵律来做。”
340
00:25:35,085 --> 00:25:40,460
I remember the days, if not weeks,of trying to figure this out.
我记得我花了好几天，甚至好几周，试图弄清楚这个问题。
341
00:25:40,543 --> 00:25:45,294
What is the rhythm that will work
to show the immensity of this achievement?
怎样的韵律，才能显示出这一成就的巨大？
342
00:25:50,184 --> 00:25:55,043
伊桑.霍克，演员，作家，卡罗的粉丝
You wanna start...You wanna do from the top?
哇！你们想从开始...大家想从一开始，就来这么一段吗？
343
00:25:55,302 --> 00:26:00,501
'No mayor shaped New York...No mayor, not even LaGuardia,
“没有哪个市长，塑造了纽约...没有市长，甚至拉瓜迪亚市长也没有，
（任期为1934-1945年）
344
00:26:00,584 --> 00:26:06,543
left upon its roiling surface more than the faintest of lasting imprints.
在纽约那激荡的表面上，哪怕留下了最微弱的持久的印记。
345
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:11,127
But Robert Moses shaped New York.
但是，罗伯特·摩西塑造了纽约。
346
00:26:12,251 --> 00:26:16,501
He built the Major Deegan Expressway,the Van Wyk Expressway,
他修建了迪根少校高速公路、范威克高速公路、
（分别是纽约州公路委员会高管，和1898-1901年大纽约市长）
347
00:26:16,584 --> 00:26:19,543
the Sheridan Expressway and the Bruckner Expressway.
谢里丹高速公路和布鲁克纳高速公路。
（分别是布朗克斯区的工程专员和区长）
348
00:26:19,626 --> 00:26:23,419
He built the Gowanus Expressway,the Prospect Expressway,
他修建了高瓦纳斯高速公路、展望高速公路、
（分别位于高瓦纳斯运河和展望公园）
349
00:26:23,501 --> 00:26:26,585
the Whitestone Expressway,the Clearview Expressway,
白石高速公路、明景高速公路
（分别通过皇后区的白石社区和明景社区）
350
00:26:26,668 --> 00:26:29,335
and the Throgs Neck Expressway.
和小颈湾高速公路。
351
00:26:29,419 --> 00:26:33,002
He built the Cross Bronx Expressway and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway,
他修建了跨布朗克斯高速公路、布鲁克林-皇后区高速公路、
352
00:26:33,085 --> 00:26:35,960
the Nassau Expressway,the Staten Island Expressway
拿骚高速公路、斯塔顿岛高速公路
353
00:26:36,043 --> 00:26:38,002
and the Long Island Expressway.
和长岛高速公路。
354
00:26:38,085 --> 00:26:42,127
He built the Harlem River Drive and the West Side Highway.'
他修建了哈莱姆河滨大道和西区高速公路。”
355
00:26:44,835 --> 00:26:47,918
I got a grant for a year.
我得到了一年的资助。
356
00:26:48,002 --> 00:26:54,252
On the basis of that,I quit my job as a reporter,
thinking I might be done in a year.
在此基础上，我辞去了记者的工作，认为我可能会在一年内，完成此书。
357
00:26:54,335 --> 00:26:57,918
But of course, at the end of a year,I had barely started.
当然，在一年结束的时候，我才刚刚开始。
358
00:26:58,002 --> 00:27:03,377
So the deeper I got into this book,the more I thought of quitting.
所以我越深入这本书，就越想放弃。
359
00:27:03,460 --> 00:27:11,626
And, you know, of course you thought about that a lot because
we had a young child,and we were really broke.
你知道，你当然会想很多，因为我们有一个年幼的孩子，我们真的很穷。
360
00:27:13,168 --> 00:27:15,626
We sold our house on Long Island.
我们卖掉了长岛的房子。
361
00:27:15,710 --> 00:27:20,043
We moved to this apartment in the Bronx,which we truly hated.
我们搬到了布朗克斯区的公寓，虽然我们真的很讨厌那里。
362
00:27:20,127 --> 00:27:23,210
But I felt, gee, this is something
但我觉得，哎呀，有些像这样的事情
363
00:27:23,835 --> 00:27:27,751
that really has to be explained.
还真的需要解释一下。
364
00:27:27,835 --> 00:27:31,710
Found out and explained. It's important to do it.
要想要发现并解释。写这本书很重要。
365
00:27:32,835 --> 00:27:36,918
You have to understand,
no one could have been more isolated than Ina and me.
你要明白，没有人比我和伊娜更与世隔绝了。
366
00:27:37,002 --> 00:27:40,501
I mean, we are up in the Bronx.I knew a couple of writers
我是说，我们住在布朗克斯。我认识几个作家，
367
00:27:40,585 --> 00:27:43,335
'cause I had worked in the Frederick Lewis Allen Room
at the Public Library,
因为我曾在公共图书馆的弗雷德里克·刘易斯·艾伦室工作过，
368
00:27:43,418 --> 00:27:46,626
but I knew nothing about publishing.
但我对出版业务，一无所知。
369
00:27:47,485 --> 00:27:49,526
The publishing world.
不认识出版圈子的人。
370
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:53,543
In 1970, when Lynn agreed to be my agent
1970年，林恩同意做我的经纪人，
371
00:27:53,626 --> 00:27:57,918
and Bob agreed to be my editor,that week, my entire life changed.
鲍勃同意做我的编辑，那一周，我的整个人生都改变了。
372
00:28:02,226 --> 00:28:07,460
There are other kinds of landscapes,not just the built ones.
还有其它种类的景观，不仅仅是工程建设景观。
373
00:28:08,019 --> 00:28:11,169
The landscape of publishing,
出版业的景观，
374
00:28:11,252 --> 00:28:15,751
from the 1950s until the present that we all live in,
从20世纪50年代到我们现在生活的时代，
375
00:28:15,835 --> 00:28:21,252
is a landscape that was largely created by Bob Gottlieb.
是鲍勃·戈特利布创造的“景观”。
376
00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:26,419
That's probably the book I'm most associated with.
这本书可能是，跟我关联最多的一本书了。
377
00:28:26,501 --> 00:28:28,252
奥利弗.扬，孙子
Really? Why do you think that is?
真的？ 您为什么，这么认为？
378
00:28:28,335 --> 00:28:32,043
Well, 'cause it's been such a huge success and so influential.
因为它太成功了，太有影响力了。
379
00:28:32,127 --> 00:28:36,501
And also 'cause my real claim to fame
is that I chose this number.
也因为我真正出名的原因，是我选择了这个数字。
380
00:28:36,585 --> 00:28:40,710
- Really? How did that...? Why? - It was originally Catch-18.
-真的吗？那是怎么...？为什么？ -它最初是《第18条军规》。
381
00:28:40,793 --> 00:28:45,501
Another major novelist was coming out with a war book.
另一位著名小说家，当时即将出版一本关于战争的书。
（利昂·尤里斯， 1924–2003年，美国著名历史小说家）
382
00:28:45,585 --> 00:28:49,543
- What's it called? - Mila 18. We couldn't...
-叫什么名字？ -《米拉18》。我们不能...
（讲华沙犹太人起义的故事）
383
00:28:49,626 --> 00:28:52,335
And this was the first novel by someone no one had ever heard of.
这是当时还是一个无名之辈写的作家写第一部小说。
（这个无名之辈就是约瑟夫·海勒，1923–1999年）
384
00:28:52,419 --> 00:28:54,710
So we had to change our number.It was a tragedy.
所以，我们必须换掉这个数字。这算是一种遗憾。
385
00:28:54,793 --> 00:28:58,543
So I was lying in bed, worrying,and I thought, Catch-22.
所以我躺在床上，很担心，我想，就叫它《第22条军规》吧。
386
00:28:58,626 --> 00:29:04,335
And I called him in the morning and said, 'I've got it.
It's 22, it's even funnier than 18.'
第二天早上，我打电话跟他说，“我定了。22条，比18条还有意思。”
387
00:29:04,419 --> 00:29:08,335
And we convinced ourselves that it was funny, so we were very happy.
我们说服自己，这很有趣，所以我们很高兴。
（这是一本黑色幽默小说）
388
00:29:08,419 --> 00:29:09,543
And it's still selling.
而它现在还在卖。
389
00:29:11,752 --> 00:29:15,752
Here's a lot of Doris's stuff,starting with her most famous book,
这里有很多多丽丝的作品，从她最著名的书开始，
（多丽丝·莱辛，1919–2013年，英国文学史上最具颠覆性的女作家之一）
390
00:29:15,835 --> 00:29:17,043
The Golden Notebook.
《金色笔记》。
391
00:29:17,626 --> 00:29:20,294
That was the second book of hers I published.
那是我出版的她的第二本书。
392
00:29:20,377 --> 00:29:21,419
What is it about?
是关于什么的？
393
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,852
Well, it's about women.
嗯，是关于女人的。
394
00:29:24,501 --> 00:29:29,752
Feminism. Men. Life. The universe.
女权主义。男人们。生命。宇宙。
395
00:29:29,835 --> 00:29:33,377
She was an amazing person and wonderful writer.
她是个了不起的人，也是个很棒的作家。
396
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:37,335
There's Toni Morrison.So, what of these books have you edited?
这是托妮·莫里森。那么，你编辑过哪些书呢？
（美国黑人女作家，1931-2019年）
397
00:29:37,419 --> 00:29:40,002
Well, all, really.
可以说是所有的，真的。
398
00:29:40,085 --> 00:29:42,335
- All but Sula, right? - No, Sula I did edit.
-除了《苏拉》，对吧？ -不，《苏拉》，是我编辑的。
（探讨女性友谊、越轨与社区排斥的小说）
399
00:29:42,419 --> 00:29:43,419
Oh, you did edit that.
哦，真是你编辑的。
400
00:29:43,501 --> 00:29:45,877
That was the first book of hers I worked on.
我编辑了她的处女作。
401
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,461
You've been working with Toni as long as you've been working with Caro.
你跟托妮合作的时间，和你跟卡罗合作的时间一样长。
402
00:29:49,543 --> 00:29:52,335
Do you have the same kind of fights with her that you do with Caro?
你和她有过，和卡罗一样的争吵吗？
403
00:29:52,419 --> 00:29:55,585
Thing is, Toni and I read the same way.
问题是，托妮和我的阅读方式一样。
404
00:29:55,668 --> 00:30:00,294
Our backgrounds are so different,but our reading experience is so similar.
我们的背景如此不同，但我们的阅读经历却如此相似。
405
00:30:00,377 --> 00:30:03,377
We don't always agree,particularly about commas,
我们并不总是意见一致，特别是关于逗号的使用，
406
00:30:04,002 --> 00:30:07,044
which were a perpetual state of war.
这是一种永久的“战争状态”。
407
00:30:07,127 --> 00:30:08,127
But...
但是...
408
00:30:11,294 --> 00:30:13,918
I only have to breathe it and she gets it,
我只需要呼吸一下，她就会明白，
409
00:30:14,002 --> 00:30:17,668
and she only has to breathe it and I understand her response.
她只需要呼吸一下，我就能理解她的反应。
410
00:30:17,752 --> 00:30:19,960
A Mercy. Very good book, by the way.
《慈悲为怀》。顺便说一下，这本书非常好。
411
00:30:20,085 --> 00:30:23,044
Beloved, of course. What editions?
《宠儿》，果然是。什么版本的?
（获普利策奖，以真实历史事件“玛格丽特·加纳杀婴案”为原型）
412
00:30:23,127 --> 00:30:26,127
There, see, that's one edition.There's another edition.
看，这是一个版本。还有另一个版本。
413
00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:28,044
Toni remembers that with Sula,
托妮记得她写《苏拉》时，
414
00:30:28,127 --> 00:30:30,461
in the first paragraph of the original manuscript,
在原稿的第一段，
415
00:30:30,543 --> 00:30:32,044
there was a cat.
写了“一只猫”。
416
00:30:32,127 --> 00:30:36,668
And what she remembers is,I said, 'No cat in the first paragraph.'
她记得的是，我说，“第一段，不要写猫。”
417
00:30:36,752 --> 00:30:39,626
So that cat was yanked out of Sula.
就这样，那只猫从苏拉身上，被“拽了出来”。
418
00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:43,543
Editors have to be cruel in order to be kind. Like grandfathers.
编辑必须残忍，才能善良。就像祖父这样。
419
00:30:44,419 --> 00:30:45,835
Works the same way.
方式是同样的。
420
00:30:47,252 --> 00:30:50,002
- I saw an image before. Is that him? - Yep.
-我之前看到过一个图像。是他吗？ -是的。
421
00:30:50,085 --> 00:30:51,585
Really? Oh, my gosh.
真的吗？哦，我的天啊。
422
00:30:51,668 --> 00:30:54,252
That's... Hey, we were all young when we were young.
这是...嘿，我们年轻的时候，都很年轻。
423
00:30:54,336 --> 00:30:56,085
You know, that's the nature of young.
你知道，这就是年轻人的本性。
424
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:57,835
You're young.
你现在也年轻。
425
00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:01,294
I was born with extra energy.
我天生精力充沛。
426
00:31:05,061 --> 00:31:08,252
I poured it into my reading,that's what I did.
我把精力倾注到我的阅读中，我就是这么做的。
427
00:31:08,336 --> 00:31:10,169
I used my energy as a reader
我把自己的精力用在了阅读上，
428
00:31:10,252 --> 00:31:15,585
'cause I certainly didn't do anything physical,
like sports, you know.
因为我肯定不做任何体力活动，比如体育运动，你懂的。
429
00:31:16,702 --> 00:31:19,918
We lived just a few doors down from Central Park.
我们住的地方离中央公园，只隔着几家的户门。
430
00:31:20,002 --> 00:31:22,461
I would never go into it.
我宁可从不进公园玩。
431
00:31:23,543 --> 00:31:28,793
My mother made me stand outside on the street
for an hour every day so I would get fresh air.
我妈妈让我每天在外面的街上站一个小时，这样我就能呼吸到新鲜空气了。
432
00:31:28,877 --> 00:31:32,543
So I stood next to the doorman and played with my yo-yo.
于是，我站在看门人身旁，玩我的溜溜球。
433
00:31:33,419 --> 00:31:36,252
He talks of himself as a miserable child.
他说却他自己，是个可怜的孩子。
434
00:31:36,336 --> 00:31:40,668
玛利亚.图奇，女演员，鲍勃.戈特利布的妻子
A few people I've known who knew him at school, they said he was adorable.
我认识的几个在学校认识他的人，都说他很可爱。
435
00:31:41,543 --> 00:31:42,793
And sweet.
还很和蔼。
436
00:31:43,627 --> 00:31:46,501
But that's not how he saw himself.
但他并不这么，看待自己。
437
00:31:47,835 --> 00:31:52,918
And I think he didn't see himself that way
because he had a father who didn't see him that way.
我想，他不这么看待自己，是因为他的父亲，不这么看待他。
438
00:31:55,377 --> 00:31:59,127
My father was a lawyer named Charles.He did nothing but work.
我父亲是个律师，名叫查尔斯。他除了工作什么也不做。
439
00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:01,919
My father was an angry person,
我的父亲是一个易怒的人，
440
00:32:02,002 --> 00:32:06,085
and some of his anger,I think, was deflected to me.
我想他的一些愤怒，是转移到我身上的。
441
00:32:07,210 --> 00:32:09,127
So I was never good enough.
所以，我从来都不够好。
442
00:32:10,019 --> 00:32:13,127
Whereas of course, to my mother,I was perfect.
当然，对我母亲来说，我是完美的。
443
00:32:14,210 --> 00:32:16,543
My mother was a public school teacher.
我母亲是一所公立学校的老师。
444
00:32:16,910 --> 00:32:20,210
We read morning, noon and night.
我们从早到晚地读书。
445
00:32:21,044 --> 00:32:25,377
At dinner, we would all sit,each with his or her own book.
晚餐时，我们都坐着，每个人都拿着自己的书。
446
00:32:27,627 --> 00:32:29,252
I was at Columbia in New York,
我在纽约的哥伦比亚大学，
447
00:32:29,336 --> 00:32:32,336
then I was at Cambridge in England for a couple of years.
然后在英国的剑桥大学，上了几年学。
448
00:32:32,419 --> 00:32:37,002
By the time I was 21,I was married and we had a baby boy.
在我21岁的时候，我结婚了，我们有了一个男孩。
449
00:32:37,793 --> 00:32:43,336
The next few years were very happy on the surface,
but underneath I was not a happy camper.
接下来的几年，表面上我很开心，但其实，我并不快乐。
450
00:32:45,002 --> 00:32:48,919
And in 1958,I went into Freudian analysis,
1958年，我开始研究弗洛伊德精神分析，
451
00:32:49,002 --> 00:32:51,877
four days a week on the couch for eight years.
每周四天，在沙发上，躺了八年。
452
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,919
'Cause I did not want to become the angry person my father was,
因为，我不想成为我父亲那样的愤怒之人，
453
00:32:56,002 --> 00:32:59,211
and I could feel myself drifting in that direction.
我能感觉到，自己正朝着那个方向漂流。
454
00:32:59,835 --> 00:33:04,085
- And did it work? - Did the psychoanalysis work?
-奏效了吗？ -精神分析有用吗？
455
00:33:04,169 --> 00:33:05,294
Well, you tell me.
那好，你来告诉我。
456
00:33:06,419 --> 00:33:09,877
Yes, it made a tremendous difference in my life.
是的，它对我的生活产生了巨大的影响。
457
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,585
During those eight years of analysis,various things happened,
such as my mother dying.
在这八年的分析中，发生了各种各样的事情，比如我母亲去世了。
458
00:33:16,419 --> 00:33:20,585
The year in analysis when I lay on my back and did nothing but cry.
精神分析的那一年，我躺在床上，除了哭什么都不做。
459
00:33:21,211 --> 00:33:23,252
And during that time, I got divorced.
在那期间，我离婚了。
460
00:33:24,169 --> 00:33:28,085
I met and engaged with your mother.
我和你母亲见过面，就订婚了。
461
00:33:28,877 --> 00:33:30,336
A fatal gesture.
一个致命的手势。
462
00:33:30,877 --> 00:33:35,877
I first met Bob when my father,
who was being published at Simon & Schuster,
我第一次见到鲍勃时，我父亲的书，正在西蒙与舒斯特公司出版，
463
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,294
brought me into the office to meet Bob Gottlieb.
带我去办公室，见了鲍勃·戈特利布。
464
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,336
She was appearing on Broadway in that famous,
horrible play called The Deputy,
她在百老汇出演了一部著名的恐怖戏剧《代理人》，
465
00:33:43,419 --> 00:33:47,752
and she was unbelievably beautiful and talented.
她的美貌和才华，令人难以置信。
466
00:33:49,169 --> 00:33:54,960
The moment I met him, actually, he said to me, 'I'm damaged goods.'
事实上，我见到他的那一刻，他就对我说，“本人是个残次品。”
467
00:33:56,419 --> 00:33:59,377
He said, 'I'm bad with children and dogs.'
他说：“我不喜欢孩子和狗。”
468
00:34:01,794 --> 00:34:07,085
And so the first thing I thought was,'We're gonna get a dog,
and we'll have a baby.'
所以我想到的第一件事就是，“我们要养只狗，然后生个孩子。”
469
00:34:16,327 --> 00:34:18,752
How did you get into publishing?
你是怎么进入出版业的？
470
00:34:18,835 --> 00:34:25,461
I was this nerdy boy out of college,
and I had read more than anybody in the world, of course.
我是一个大学毕业的书呆子，当然，我读的书，比世界上任何人都多。
471
00:34:26,044 --> 00:34:32,502
And nobody would even look at me,let alone hire me,
'cause I was this scruffy,arrogant person.
没人会看我一眼，更别说雇我了，因为我是个邋遢又傲慢的人。
472
00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,419
Finally, I encountered an employment agent,
最后，我遇到了一个职业介绍人，
473
00:34:35,502 --> 00:34:38,461
and she took to me, which no one previously ever had.
她喜欢我，这是以前没有人喜欢过的。
474
00:34:38,543 --> 00:34:42,419
And she said, 'There's only one place you can work, Simon & Schuster.'
她说，“你只能在西蒙与舒斯特出版公司工作。”
475
00:34:43,211 --> 00:34:47,211
So I came in on Friday,for an appointment with Jack Goodman.
所以，我是在周五，来找杰克·古德曼的。
476
00:34:47,294 --> 00:34:51,919
So he said,'Why don't you write me a letter
saying why you want to be in publishing.'
这样他说，“你为什么不给我写封信，告诉我，你为什么想从事出版业呢？”
477
00:34:52,002 --> 00:34:54,086
And this really offended me.
这真的冒犯了我。
478
00:34:54,169 --> 00:34:56,919
So I went home,this was a Friday, and I wrote:
于是我回到家，那天是星期五，我写道：
479
00:34:57,002 --> 00:35:01,668
'Dear Mr. Goodman, you've asked me to say why I want to be in publishing.
“亲爱的古德曼先生，你问我为什么想从事出版业。
480
00:35:01,752 --> 00:35:06,336
I find that impossible to do,
since it has never occurred to me to be in anything else.'
我觉得这是不可能的，因为我从来没想过，要去别的地方。”
481
00:35:07,452 --> 00:35:10,877
And I put it in an envelope and left it at the front desk.
我把它装进信封，放在前台。
482
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,627
Now, this was a complete lie
'cause it had never occurred to me to be anything except a reader.
这完全是个谎言，因为我从来没想过，自己除了是个读者，还能做什么。
483
00:35:17,752 --> 00:35:22,627
I started in 1955,so I was earning $75 a week.
我1955年开始工作，每周挣75美元。
484
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:24,960
It was beyond my wildest dreams.
这是我做梦也想不到的。
485
00:35:25,044 --> 00:35:29,461
I had been there two days when I was so in love with it.
我在那里呆了两天，就爱上了那里。
486
00:35:29,543 --> 00:35:31,419
It was so perfect for me.
这对我来说太完美了。
487
00:35:32,252 --> 00:35:37,710
Within a year or two, I was editing books,
and soon I was editing a lot of books.
在一两年的时间里，我开始编辑书籍，很快就编辑了很多书。
488
00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:49,252
I was always, I have to say,very sure of myself.
我不得不说，我一直都很自信。
489
00:35:49,336 --> 00:35:51,294
I never doubted my editorial judgments.
我从不怀疑自己的编辑判断。
490
00:35:51,378 --> 00:35:55,002
I doubted everything else about me,but not that.
我曾怀疑我的其它一切，但不是这个。
491
00:35:55,086 --> 00:36:00,378
'Cause I really knew that I was a better reader than anybody else.
因为我知道，我比任何人，都更擅长阅读。
492
00:36:00,994 --> 00:36:03,835
And time has not proved me wrong.
时间并没有证明，我错了。
493
00:36:03,919 --> 00:36:07,502
Not that I haven't made a hundred mistakes,but that's a different story.
并不是说，我没有犯过一百个错误，但那是另一回事。
494
00:36:07,585 --> 00:36:12,502
From the beginning, when a writer or an agent has given me a manuscript,
从一开始，当一个作家或经纪人给我一份手稿时，
495
00:36:12,585 --> 00:36:18,252
I've read it overnight and gotten back to them the next day,
or at worst, over the weekend.
我就会连夜阅读，第二天再回复他们，或者最坏的情况是在周末。
496
00:36:18,660 --> 00:36:21,919
To me, not doing that was cruelty to animals.
对我来说，不这样做，是对动物的残忍。
497
00:36:22,002 --> 00:36:24,919
But, also, I couldn't wait.
但是，我也等不及了。
498
00:36:25,002 --> 00:36:29,336
It wasn't out of nobility, although,as you know, I have that.
不是出于崇高，虽然，你也知道，我有崇高。
499
00:36:29,419 --> 00:36:31,710
But it was out of curiosity.
但这是出于好奇。
500
00:36:31,794 --> 00:36:34,877
What has she done? How does it work out?
她做了什么？它是如何工作的？
501
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,543
Why do I want to put it on my bedside table
and not read it for three weeks?
为什么我要把稿子放在床头柜上，三周都不去读稿？
502
00:36:38,627 --> 00:36:41,794
You're going to have to read it anyway.Why not read it right away?
无论如何你都得读。为什么不马上读呢？
503
00:36:41,877 --> 00:36:46,752
So I think that encouraged people to send me things,
and it certainly was good for my writers.
所以，我认为这鼓励了人们给我寄稿子来，这当然对我的作家们有好处。
504
00:36:49,452 --> 00:36:56,419
In 1968, I left Simon & Schuster, where I was the editor-in-chief,
and went to Knopf.
1968年，我离开了“西蒙与舒斯特”，我在那里已是主编了，我到了“克诺夫”。
505
00:36:56,502 --> 00:37:01,585
凯西.霍瑞根，克诺夫出版社总编辑
He came in like a cyclone, like a tornado,and changed everything.
他就像旋风一样，像龙卷风一样，改变了一切。
506
00:37:02,794 --> 00:37:04,961
As head of Knopf,he would see everything.
作为克诺夫出版社的负责人，他能看到一切。
507
00:37:05,044 --> 00:37:10,211
One of his dictums is,if you get every detail right,you get the best book.
他的格言之一是，如果你把每个细节都写对了，你就写出了最好的书。
508
00:37:10,294 --> 00:37:15,086
Because you don't know what sells a book.
Is it the jacket? Is it the flap copy?
因为你不知道，什么能卖书。是因为书皮吗？是翻印版吗？
509
00:37:15,169 --> 00:37:16,961
Certainly the way the book is edited.
当然是这本书的编辑方式。
510
00:37:17,044 --> 00:37:19,044
You have to do everything right,every detail.
你必须做好每件事，每一个细节。
511
00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:22,710
I learned from him everything about publishing.
我从他那里，学到了出版的一切。
512
00:37:23,919 --> 00:37:30,419
The importance of the author,and how we are the representative
and advocate and promoter of the author.
作者的重要性，以及我们如何成为作者的代表、倡导者和推动者。
513
00:37:30,502 --> 00:37:35,710
And we are standing up for the author at every turn
because the author's out there alone.
我们总是站在作者这边，因为作者是孤独的。
514
00:37:35,794 --> 00:37:37,877
And we're only here because of the authors.
我们能在这里，只是因为有了作者。
515
00:37:39,786 --> 00:37:46,211
At Knopf, I was the president,publisher, the editor-in-chief,
the editor of 20 to 30 books a year.
在克诺夫出版社，我是总裁、出版人、主编，一年要编辑20到30本书。
516
00:37:55,378 --> 00:37:57,543
With, at home, an actress wife...
家里有个演员老婆...
517
00:38:00,835 --> 00:38:02,919
children, including you.
孩子们，包括你。
518
00:38:05,002 --> 00:38:10,835
While, in my other life,helping to run the New York City Ballet...
然而，在我的另一种生活中，我帮助管理纽约市芭蕾舞团...
519
00:38:12,127 --> 00:38:15,127
for George Balanchine and his partner, Lincoln Kirstein.
为了乔治·巴兰钦和他的搭档林肯·科尔斯坦。
520
00:38:15,211 --> 00:38:21,669
I ended up doing all the programing of the ballets of the season,
overseeing all the marketing.
最后，我负责了这一季芭蕾舞剧的所有节目编排，并监督了所有的营销活动。
521
00:38:21,752 --> 00:38:26,169
So I loved that.That was the other side of my life.
所以我很喜欢。那是我生活的另一面。
522
00:38:26,827 --> 00:38:29,086
And I was reading.
而我那时还在阅读。
523
00:38:29,169 --> 00:38:31,002
But I wasn't doing anything else.
但我其它事，什么也没做。
524
00:38:32,094 --> 00:38:33,936
I wasn't going out.I wasn't going to movies.
我没打算出去。我没打算去看电影。
525
00:38:33,961 --> 00:38:36,835
I wasn't doing anything but the things I chose to do.
除了我选择做的事，我什么其它的都没做。
526
00:38:36,919 --> 00:38:40,294
So there was enough energy.I never felt I was falling behind.
因为有了这样的精力，我当时感觉到，不会再落伍了。
527
00:38:40,378 --> 00:38:41,819
Also, I'm fast.
而且，我跑得更快了。
528
00:38:51,419 --> 00:38:54,461
The first thing editors have to remember is, it's a service job.
编辑们要记住的第一件事是，这是一份服务工作。
529
00:38:54,544 --> 00:38:56,294
It's not your book.
这不是你的书。
530
00:38:57,169 --> 00:38:59,544
It's different from writer to writer.
每个作者都不一样。
531
00:38:59,627 --> 00:39:06,761
Sometimes it's a highly emotional relationship
because a transference gets made,as in psychoanalysis.
有时这是一种高度情绪化的关系，因为发生了转移，就像在精神分析中一样。
532
00:39:07,244 --> 00:39:12,752
And the writer needs to use the editor
一位作者，需要利用一位编辑，
533
00:39:12,836 --> 00:39:17,544
for emotional or psychic reasons,
and that becomes part of the relationship.
因为情感或精神上的原因，这成为了他们之间关系的一部分。
534
00:39:17,627 --> 00:39:22,627
It's not deliberate. It happens. Others, no.
这不是故意的。它就发生了。其他人，则不会。
535
00:39:22,744 --> 00:39:25,919
Some writers need help with plot.
有些作者，在情节方面需要帮助。
536
00:39:26,002 --> 00:39:30,961
If they're novelists, they need someone to say,
'This character isn't working.
如果他们是小说家，他们需要有人说，‘这个角色行不通。
537
00:39:31,669 --> 00:39:35,128
This situation doesn't ring true to me.Here's why.'
我看这种情况。不太真实。这是为什么。”
538
00:39:35,211 --> 00:39:36,919
That's one kind of editing.
这是一种编辑。
539
00:39:37,002 --> 00:39:42,461
Others, you can't say anything to other than 'semicolon.'
对其他人，除了“分号”，你什么都不能说。
540
00:39:43,919 --> 00:39:45,378
So that's what you provide.
这就是你提供的。
541
00:39:45,461 --> 00:39:49,877
You just come to sense what will be helpful, what will serve.
你只需要去感觉，什么是有帮助的，什么是可供驱使的。
542
00:39:53,677 --> 00:39:58,752
But what's complicated about it,
that suggests that you have to be egoless.
但复杂的是，这意味着你必须是“无我”的。
543
00:39:58,836 --> 00:40:01,502
But you might have noticed that I am not egoless.
但你可能已经注意到，我不是“无我”的。
544
00:40:01,585 --> 00:40:04,752
So you need a strong ego...
所以，你需要一个强大的“自我”...
545
00:40:05,419 --> 00:40:08,794
because there has to be...
因为，这必须得有...
546
00:40:09,836 --> 00:40:12,669
an equivalence of strength.
一种力量的对等。
547
00:40:13,253 --> 00:40:20,585
If you are not strong enough to give the writer what he needs,
which is your true strong opinion,
如果你不够强大，没有给作者他所需要的，你的真正强烈的意见，
548
00:40:21,211 --> 00:40:24,420
if you have to hold back and be nervous,
如果你不得不退缩和紧张，
549
00:40:24,502 --> 00:40:27,336
it is not gonna work 'cause you're not providing what's necessary.
这样是不行的，因为，你没有提供必要的服务。
550
00:40:27,420 --> 00:40:29,461
So there has to be an equality.
所以，必须有一个对等。
551
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:32,378
I think it was 1970.
我记得是1970年。
552
00:40:32,461 --> 00:40:35,794
All he cared about in this first conversation,
他在第一次谈话中关心的是，
553
00:40:35,877 --> 00:40:38,669
he wanted to talk about punctuation...
他当时想谈谈标点符号...
554
00:40:39,627 --> 00:40:42,669
which we've been talking about for 45 years.
就这个话题，我们已经谈了45年了。
555
00:40:42,752 --> 00:40:44,836
So we started work,and I started working on it,
所以，我们开始了工作，我也开始了加工它，
556
00:40:44,919 --> 00:40:49,294
and it was clear that it needed cutting, condensing,
很明显，它需要删减，浓缩，
557
00:40:49,378 --> 00:40:51,336
whatever polite word you want to use.
随便你用什么客气的词。
558
00:40:51,420 --> 00:40:56,336
Not because there was too much to read,but you couldn't publish it.
不是因为有太多东西要读，而是你不能发表。
559
00:40:56,420 --> 00:40:59,294
It could not have fit into one physical volume.
它不可能被纳入一个有形的体积中。
560
00:40:59,378 --> 00:41:03,236
大卫.雷姆尼克，《纽约客》杂志总编
That the spine of the book could only...
那本书的书脊只能...
561
00:41:03,377 --> 00:41:06,961
大卫.雷姆尼克，《纽约客》杂志总编
physically hold what it ended up holding,
在形体上，保持它最终持有的东西，
562
00:41:07,044 --> 00:41:11,420
that it would absolutely fall to smithereens if it went any longer.
如果它再继续添加下去，它绝对会裂成散页。
563
00:41:11,502 --> 00:41:15,752
I asked him once about doing it in two volumes,
有一次，我问他，能不能把这本书分成两卷，
564
00:41:16,502 --> 00:41:20,919
and he said,
'I might be able to get people interested in Robert Moses once.
他说，“我也许能让人们对罗伯特·摩西感兴趣一次。
565
00:41:21,002 --> 00:41:24,002
I'll never get them interested twice, ' so...
我不会让他们再一次感兴趣了，”所以...
566
00:41:25,961 --> 00:41:29,002
And I agreed without... Completely.
于是，我无条件同意...完全地。
567
00:41:29,086 --> 00:41:32,752
And I didn't think the book was gonna sell very many copies.
我当时并不认为，这本书会卖很多本。
568
00:41:32,836 --> 00:41:35,294
We had to get it down to a certain length,
我们必须把它压缩到一定的长度，
569
00:41:35,378 --> 00:41:40,003
which meant we had to cut 1,050,000 words down to 700,000 words.
这意味着我们必须把105万个单词，压缩到70万个单词。
570
00:41:40,086 --> 00:41:43,127
They had to cut 350,000 words?
他们不得不删减35万字？
571
00:41:43,728 --> 00:41:45,411
Oh, my God.
哦，我的上帝。
572
00:41:46,420 --> 00:41:48,919
Most books would run a seventh of that.
大多数书的价格，只有它的七分之一。
573
00:41:49,003 --> 00:41:51,752
There's a lot of books that are under 100,000 words.
有很多书的字数，都在10万字以下。
574
00:41:53,211 --> 00:41:58,544
The material was wonderful,so it was very hard to give it up.
素材是很棒的，所以很难舍弃。
575
00:41:58,627 --> 00:42:02,502
It's not like the usual situation where, as the editor, you think:
这不像通常的情况，作为编辑，你会想：
576
00:42:02,585 --> 00:42:06,003
'Oh, my God. This is boring.There's too much of this.
“哦，我的上帝。这太无聊了。这写的太多了。
577
00:42:06,086 --> 00:42:08,752
We gotta get rid of some of this.'Or, 'This is repetitive.'
我们得处理掉一些。”或者，“这些是重复的。”
578
00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:13,711
But here, the problem was that I didn't want to
get rid of this material either,but it had to go.
但在这里，问题是我也不想丢弃这些材料，但它必须得去掉。
579
00:42:14,461 --> 00:42:15,461
So...
所以...
580
00:42:16,919 --> 00:42:20,794
Bob agreed in theory,and then we began doing the work.
鲍勃在理论上同意了，然后我们就开始工作了。
581
00:42:20,877 --> 00:42:24,961
I would offer him my suggestions,and we would go back and forth.
我会向他提出我的建议，我们会反复讨论。
582
00:42:25,728 --> 00:42:28,752
He had this whole publishing house to run,
他要掌管整个出版社的工作，
583
00:42:28,836 --> 00:42:31,627
but I would get there in the morning about 10:00,
但我早上10点左右，就会到那里，
584
00:42:31,711 --> 00:42:35,336
and he would shut the door to his office every day,
他每天都会关上他办公室的门，
585
00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:39,544
and we would work for three or four hours a day.
我们每天闷在屋里，一起工作三、四个小时。
586
00:42:39,627 --> 00:42:41,295
I remember when he'd open it,
我记得当他打开门的时候，
587
00:42:41,378 --> 00:42:47,669
there'd be sometimes a line of editors out in the hall
waiting for his decisions on things.
有时会有一排编辑们，在大厅里等着他对各项工作的决定。
588
00:42:47,752 --> 00:42:51,253
But for that time, the two of us
但在那个时候，我们两个人
589
00:42:51,336 --> 00:42:58,169
were just concentrating with a real sort of fierceness on
how to cut this book.
都非常激烈地专注于，如何剪辑这本书。
590
00:43:09,003 --> 00:43:13,461
I've always felt that if a nonfiction book is going to endure,
我一直觉得，如果一本非小说类书籍要经久不衰，
591
00:43:13,544 --> 00:43:18,877
the level of the prose and the narrative,the rhythm, etcetera,
那么它的散文叙事水平、节奏韵律感，等等，
592
00:43:18,961 --> 00:43:27,544
the setting of scenes,has to be at the same level
as a great work of fiction that endures.
以及场景设置，都必须与一部经久不衰的伟大小说作品，处于同一水准。
593
00:43:27,627 --> 00:43:29,336
Very few editors...
很少有编辑...
594
00:43:31,794 --> 00:43:36,877
and not all that many nonfiction writers,feel that way.
并不是所有的非虚构作家，都有这种感觉。
595
00:43:37,461 --> 00:43:43,878
So many of them just seem to feel that
all that matters is to get the facts down.
他们中的许多人似乎只是觉得，最重要的是把事实记录下来。
596
00:43:44,502 --> 00:43:48,253
And your father, Bob Gottlieb,
而你的父亲，鲍勃·戈特利布，
597
00:43:48,878 --> 00:43:52,961
he cared as much about the writing as I did.
他和我一样地，在乎写作。
598
00:43:53,502 --> 00:43:58,544
He's maybe the only person I ever met
who cared as much about the writing.
他可能是我见过的唯一一个这么在乎写作的人。
599
00:43:58,627 --> 00:44:02,794
Now, that doesn't mean we agreed about the writing.
这并不意味着，我们在写作上，意见一致。
600
00:44:02,878 --> 00:44:09,752
And particularly in the... I mean, a lot of it came down
to semicolons 'cause he thinks I use too many semicolons.
特别是在...我是说，很多都归结为分号，因为他认为，我用了太多的分号。
601
00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:13,836
The great thing about Bob is also the maddening thing about him.
鲍勃的伟大之处，也是他令人抓狂的地方。
602
00:44:13,919 --> 00:44:17,453
Everything is of total importance.
每件事，都认为是非常重要的。
603
00:44:17,578 --> 00:44:20,711
The first chapter of the book and a semicolon.
书的第一章和一个分号的使用。
604
00:44:21,011 --> 00:44:23,086
They're of equal importance.
它们同样重要。
605
00:44:23,752 --> 00:44:30,836
And he can be equally firm,strong,emotional,irrational about any of them.
他可以同样地坚定，深刻，情绪化，不理智地，对待它们中的任何一个。
606
00:44:30,919 --> 00:44:34,128
Now, I'm like that too.So it takes one to know one.
我现在也是如此。所以，这就叫“近朱者赤”。
607
00:44:34,211 --> 00:44:38,669
Because I,too,think that a semicolon is worth fighting a civil war about.
因为我也认为，一个分号的使用，值得为之打一场“内战”。
608
00:44:39,911 --> 00:44:43,694
A semicolon has a particular function.
分号具有特定的功能。
609
00:44:43,878 --> 00:44:48,502
A semicolon is not as much of a stop as a period. That's a full stop.
一个分号，不像一段话的停止符号那样。它更像一个句号。
610
00:44:48,586 --> 00:44:54,461
But it's more of a stop than a comma,
which is just something you slide...A little stop.
但它更像是一个句号，而不是逗号，逗号只是你滑动的东西...停顿一下。
611
00:44:54,544 --> 00:44:58,544
So it has a particular function.
它有一个特殊的功能。
612
00:44:58,627 --> 00:45:03,378
He says you have a very different idea about semicolons than he does.
他说，你对分号的看法，和他完全不同。
613
00:45:03,461 --> 00:45:06,462
'Cause I'm an editor. He's just a writer.
因为我是个编辑。他只是个作家。
614
00:45:07,086 --> 00:45:10,711
玛丽.诺里斯，《纽约客》杂志的“逗号女王”
Can you imagine why two men might fight over a semicolon?
你能想象，为什么两个人会为了一个分号，而争吵吗？
615
00:45:10,794 --> 00:45:14,462
Well, it's misused. Frequently.
嗯，它被误用了。频繁地。
616
00:45:14,544 --> 00:45:18,336
But why is the semicolon a confusing point of punctuation?
但是，为什么分号是一个令人困惑的标点符号呢？
617
00:45:23,202 --> 00:45:24,852
Because it's...
因为这是...
618
00:45:28,011 --> 00:45:30,070
I know how I use it.
我知道，我怎么去用它。
619
00:45:30,253 --> 00:45:38,295
Which is to say that you would have two sentences
that have a causal relationship,
也就是说，你有两个，有因果关系的句子，
620
00:45:38,378 --> 00:45:40,794
and they're better joined than unjoined.
它们连在一起，比不连在一起好。
621
00:45:41,162 --> 00:45:45,378
科尔姆.托宾，作家
The semicolon,really,whatever way you look at it,lengthens a sentence.
分号，真的，不管你怎么看它，都能延长一个句子。
622
00:45:45,462 --> 00:45:50,420
It gives the writer permission to write another sentence almost as long.
它允许作者再写一个，几乎同样长的句子。
623
00:45:50,502 --> 00:45:55,044
Oddly enough,even though we don't know we do,we read with our breath.
奇怪的是，即使我们不知道，我们在用呼吸阅读。
624
00:45:55,128 --> 00:45:59,336
And, you know, and you're moving down,
而且，你知道，你往下看，
625
00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:03,086
and a semicolon doesn't look like a stop
分号看起来不像一个句号，
626
00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:05,919
in the same way as a full stop with a capital letter does.
不像一个大写字母的句号。
627
00:46:06,003 --> 00:46:08,211
Do you often wonder about them?
你经常对它们感到疑惑吗？
628
00:46:08,295 --> 00:46:13,669
If a dash or a full stop might just do something more?
如果破折号或句号，能起到更多的作用呢？
629
00:46:15,003 --> 00:46:18,170
There is this semicolon,
这里有个分号，
630
00:46:18,253 --> 00:46:22,295
one of Robert Caro's semicolons,in this piece that is his memoir:
罗伯特·卡罗用的分号之一，在他的回忆录中：
631
00:46:24,128 --> 00:46:28,295
'At that time, I was constantly flying back and forth
between Austin and Washington.
“那时候，我经常在奥斯汀和华盛顿之间飞来飞去。
632
00:46:28,378 --> 00:46:32,295
Papers don't die, ' semicolon,'People do.'
那些论文不会死，” 分号， “人会死的。”
633
00:46:33,978 --> 00:46:37,295
A lot of it is about tension. You know?
很多都是关于紧张的。你知道吗?
634
00:46:37,378 --> 00:46:41,295
You know something's coming when you see that semicolon.
当你看到分号的时候，你就知道，有情况了。
635
00:46:42,753 --> 00:46:45,753
I wasn't gonna give in 'cause it was my book, at the end.
我不会放弃的，因为这是我的书。
636
00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:48,336
It was gonna be my punctuation.
这是我的标点符号。
637
00:46:48,420 --> 00:46:52,502
And Bob wouldn't give in because he thought I was wrong, you know?
鲍勃不肯让步，因为他认为我错了，你知道吗？
638
00:46:52,586 --> 00:46:55,420
And he thought he was right.
他认为自己是对的。
639
00:46:55,502 --> 00:46:58,927
So there was a lot of stalking out of rooms.
所以，有很多办法，可以不露声色地离开办公室。
640
00:47:00,136 --> 00:47:02,378
So he was the editor-in-chief,
他是总编辑，
641
00:47:02,462 --> 00:47:07,295
so he could always walk into another room
and have a conference with somebody about their...
所以，他总是可以走进另一个房间，和别人开会，讨论他们的...
642
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,544
Something to do with one of their books,
or their contracts or something.
跟他们讨论一本书，或者有关合同什么的。
643
00:47:11,627 --> 00:47:14,961
I had no place to go except the bathroom.
除了洗手间，我没有地方可去。
644
00:47:15,045 --> 00:47:19,128
So I really spent a lot of time in the bathroom at Knopf.
所以，我在“克诺夫”花了很多时间，躲在洗手间里。
645
00:47:19,211 --> 00:47:23,878
But there was a lot of real, real arguments.
但是，有很多真正的争论。
646
00:47:23,961 --> 00:47:27,128
And, you know,I'm a fast cutter and worker.
而且，你知道，我是一个“快速切割手”和“能工巧匠”。
647
00:47:27,211 --> 00:47:32,378
But the overall process of my working on it
and then working with him took a year,
但从我编辑这本书，和他一起工作的整个过程，历经了一年时间，
648
00:47:32,919 --> 00:47:38,378
which is probably ten months longer than any other book,
or most other books I've ever dealt with.
这可能比其它任何一本书，或者我编辑过的大多数书，都要长十个月。
649
00:47:38,462 --> 00:47:43,669
And we pared it down to whatever it is,
1700 pages, I can't even remember.
我们把它删减到1700页，我甚至都不记得了。
650
00:47:44,295 --> 00:47:48,128
And at that, it was hard to fit it all into one volume.
在这种情况下，很难把它们都塞进一本书里。
651
00:47:48,211 --> 00:47:51,170
There were moments when I wasn't sure we could.
有些时候，我不确定，我们能不能。
652
00:47:51,253 --> 00:47:54,669
Looking back on it, it was really hard.
现在回想起来，真的很难。
653
00:47:54,753 --> 00:48:01,211
When I look back on my life,I don't think anything was harder than that.
当我回顾我的生活时，我认为没有什么，比这更困难的了。
654
00:48:05,086 --> 00:48:09,211
As you know, the book, it's a blockbuster.
如你所知，这本书“一炮而红”了。
655
00:48:09,745 --> 00:48:14,961
But when you read the book,you don't want less, you want more.
但是，当你读这本书的时候，你想要的不是更少，而是更多。
656
00:48:15,045 --> 00:48:18,544
That is the indication of a wonderful book.
这就是一本好书的标志。
657
00:48:18,628 --> 00:48:21,695
But of course, it took him,what, seven years?
当然，他花了多长时间，七年？
658
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,462
Let's put it mildly. He's industrious.
让我们委婉点说。他是勤劳的。
659
00:48:25,544 --> 00:48:29,378
And that is a quality I honor and admire more than almost any other.
这是我最尊重和钦佩的，超乎常人的品质。
660
00:48:29,462 --> 00:48:33,669
'Cause anyone can be adorable. But not everyone can be industrious.
因为每个人都可以很可爱。但不是每个人都能勤奋的。
661
00:48:33,753 --> 00:48:35,211
With results.
还有收获。
662
00:48:39,253 --> 00:48:42,544
Caro does this brilliant job in this chapter on Jones Beach
卡罗在琼斯海滩的这一章中做得很出色，
663
00:48:42,628 --> 00:48:48,836
where he literally has a whole section about
the geological forces that made Long Island.
他用了整整一节，来描述形成长岛的地质力量。
664
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,669
Like, he starts with glaciers.
比如，他从冰河时期写起。
665
00:48:50,753 --> 00:48:56,462
史蒂文.约翰逊，作家
He goes back, you know,thousands and thousands of years,
and tells you the whole beginning of this.
他回到，你知道，几千年以前，告诉你整个故事的开始。
666
00:48:56,544 --> 00:49:01,628
And then he starts talking about the communities
that formed on Long Island,which is crucial to the story.
然后，他开始谈论在长岛形成的社区，这对故事至关重要。
667
00:49:01,711 --> 00:49:06,544
So you have both the kind of wealthy folks
in the kind of Fitzgerald, Gatsby,North Shore communities,
所以，这里既有住在北岸的，像菲茨杰拉德、盖茨比这样的富人，
（菲茨杰拉德的代表作《了不起的盖茨比》）
668
00:49:06,628 --> 00:49:11,045
but also the kind of fisherman communities along the South Shore.
也有居住在南岸的渔民社区。
669
00:49:11,544 --> 00:49:14,669
So you learn the kind of sociological history of these communities,
这样，你就可以了解这些社区的社会学历史，
670
00:49:14,753 --> 00:49:17,502
what they meant and where they were geographically on the island.
它们的意义以及它们在岛上的地理位置。
671
00:49:17,586 --> 00:49:19,586
And then you have technological history.
然后你读到的，是科技史。
672
00:49:19,669 --> 00:49:21,878
So he introduces this idea of the car gets developed.
于是，他引入了汽车业发展的概念。
673
00:49:21,961 --> 00:49:24,086
Suddenly people are driving.It's the early '20s.
一下子，人们开始开车了。那是20年代初的事。
674
00:49:24,170 --> 00:49:27,212
People have their own cars,and they're stuck inside the city.
人们有了自己的汽车，他们被困在城市里。
675
00:49:27,295 --> 00:49:29,253
They can't get to the beach.
他们到不了海滩。
676
00:49:29,337 --> 00:49:33,753
And in the middle of all that,then,you have Robert Moses himself,
在这一切中间，你还读到了，罗伯特·摩西本人，
677
00:49:33,836 --> 00:49:35,212
who has been renting a boat
他租了一艘船，
678
00:49:35,295 --> 00:49:42,502
and going out to these basically abandoned,
beautiful white-sand beaches and dreaming of this park.
去了这些，基本上被遗弃的美丽的白色沙滩，梦想着这个公园。
679
00:49:42,586 --> 00:49:44,295
The chapter is actually called 'A Dream.'
实际上，这章起名叫做“一个梦”。
680
00:49:45,202 --> 00:49:48,628
That becomes the first great project that Moses does.
这是摩西做的第一个大项目。
681
00:49:48,711 --> 00:49:50,045
He builds the causeway.
他修建了海堤大道。
682
00:49:50,128 --> 00:49:53,794
He figures out getting the Southern State highway through Long Island,
他想办法让南部州际公路穿过长岛，
683
00:49:53,878 --> 00:49:57,878
and builds this beach, which becomes,and to this day still is,
并建造了这个海滩，直到今天，
684
00:49:57,961 --> 00:50:01,170
you know, a beach that truly belongs to the people of New York.
你知道，这是一个真正属于纽约市民的海滩。
685
00:50:04,378 --> 00:50:07,544
He sets up where you don't know what to make of Moses.
他设置了一个，你不知道该如何理解摩西的地方。
686
00:50:07,628 --> 00:50:09,295
Moses as an idealist.
摩西，作为一个理想主义者。
687
00:50:09,378 --> 00:50:13,794
Moses as someone who really believes in the urban space and improving it.
摩西是一个，真正相信城市空间，并改善它的人。
688
00:50:13,878 --> 00:50:15,170
And then as you go on,
然后，你接着往下读，
689
00:50:15,253 --> 00:50:18,045
where he does these interviews with these people in a community,
他在一个社区里，采访这些人，
690
00:50:18,128 --> 00:50:21,045
that simply one of the expressways went through.
那只是这条高速公路经过的一个地方。
691
00:50:21,128 --> 00:50:27,378
And went through so sort of vehemently and vigorously, without any mercy.
This community being torn asunder.
由于进展得如此激烈和坚决，不带丝毫怜悯，这个社区正在被撕裂。
692
00:50:27,462 --> 00:50:32,544
And he will find the woman
who tried to run the community group to stop this.
他会找到那位，试图操纵社区团体，来阻止这一切进展的女人。
693
00:50:32,628 --> 00:50:34,462
But he would interview her about her life,
但他会采访到她，了解她的生活，
694
00:50:34,544 --> 00:50:39,378
about what sort of place this was before the expressway came.
了解在高速公路到来之前，这里是什么样子。
695
00:50:39,462 --> 00:50:43,045
So in the Moses book, he will start giving you the two things,
所以，在写摩西的书中，他会给你写了两件事，
696
00:50:43,128 --> 00:50:46,253
but then a third will emerge,which is that Moses is changing.
但第三件事，随即出现，那就是摩西正在发生改变。
697
00:50:47,170 --> 00:50:49,920
Power is changing Moses.
权力正在改变摩西。
698
00:50:50,003 --> 00:50:59,170
And that the idealism is now becoming poisoned
by a willfulness and by an ability...An inability to listen.
理想主义，现在正被武断和能力所毒害...无法倾听别人意见。
699
00:50:59,253 --> 00:51:02,062
And so this character is hardening.
所以这个角色变硬了。
700
00:51:07,553 --> 00:51:12,961
I thought my books, when I started,
were gonna be about how power worked,explanation of how power worked.
当我打算写这本书时，我想我的书是关于，权力是如何运作的，并对此做出解释。
701
00:51:13,045 --> 00:51:16,212
There came a moment while I was doing The Power Broker
在我写《权力掮客》的时候，有一刻
702
00:51:16,295 --> 00:51:20,961
when I suddenly realized that my books would have to be
about something else,in addition.
我突然意识到，我的书还得额外地，再写点别的。
703
00:51:21,045 --> 00:51:24,920
They were gonna have to be about the effect of power on the powerless.
它们必须是关于，权力对无权无势人们的影响。
704
00:51:25,003 --> 00:51:28,337
How it affected people for good or for ill.
它对人们的影响是好是坏。
705
00:51:29,212 --> 00:51:33,711
I did 522 interviews for this book.
为了写这本书，我进行了522次采访。
706
00:51:33,795 --> 00:51:37,212
I was trying to show the human cost of the highways.
我试图展示，这条高速公路的，人文层面上的成本。
707
00:51:37,295 --> 00:51:39,462
You'd walk into these buildings...
你走进这些建筑...
708
00:51:39,544 --> 00:51:47,878
I remember this one apartment where I knocked at it,
and there were four or five little kids running around.
我记得有一间公寓，我敲了敲门，里面有四五个小孩跑来跑去。
709
00:51:48,878 --> 00:51:52,753
And the mother,no matter what question I asked her,
而那位母亲，不管我问她什么问题，
710
00:51:53,503 --> 00:51:56,920
she would say,'I've gotta get my kids out of here.'
她都会说，“我得让我的孩子们，离开这里。”
711
00:51:57,003 --> 00:52:01,836
That's all I heard,'I've gotta get my kids out of here.
I've gotta get my kids out of here.'
我只听到，“我得把我孩子弄走。我得带着我孩子，离开这里。”
712
00:52:03,286 --> 00:52:09,836
You know, all those years ago,writing this book,
and you didn't miss a beat,still plays well.
这么多年前，写这本书的时候，你没有漏掉任何一次“心跳”，现在仍然跳动正常。
713
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,420
丽莎.卢卡斯，万神殿出版社出版人
So much expires,20 years later and you're like,'Forgot about the women.'
时过境迁太多了，20年后，你会说，“忘了那些女人吧。”
714
00:52:14,503 --> 00:52:18,711
Or,you know,'Oops,that was a little racist.'And there's none of that.
或者，你懂的，“哎呀，这可有点儿种族歧视啊。” 这些都没有。
715
00:52:18,795 --> 00:52:25,003
There's this real love of people and this real, you know,
sightline on how people are treated,
这是一种真正对人的爱，是一种，关于人们该如何被对待的真实视线，
716
00:52:25,087 --> 00:52:29,795
whether it's women,whether it's people of color,
whether it's the poor,whether it's whoever.
无论是女性，还是有色人种，无论是穷人，无论是谁。
717
00:52:29,878 --> 00:52:32,836
Whoever is marginalized is given space.
任何被边缘化的人，都会得到的空间。
718
00:52:35,669 --> 00:52:40,961
Literally right outside the door of this building
that we're sitting in is the Bruckner Expressway.
就在我们现在坐着的这栋楼的门外，就是布鲁克纳高速公路。
719
00:52:42,012 --> 00:52:44,961
Reading the chapter 'One Mile, 'it was very clear,
读到“一英里”这一章，这就很明显了，
720
00:52:45,045 --> 00:52:50,420
玛约拉.卡特，房地产开发商 like,
these were people who were impacted by the construction of a highway
就像，这些人受到高速公路建设的影响，
721
00:52:50,503 --> 00:52:55,544
which equaled the destruction of their way of life completely.
这等于完全破坏了他们的生活方式。
722
00:52:55,628 --> 00:52:57,795
And it was never gonna be the same again.
再也不会像以前那样了。
723
00:52:58,961 --> 00:53:02,253
The thing that struck me the most was that there was a route
最让我震惊的是，原来还有一条路线，
724
00:53:02,337 --> 00:53:09,462
that could have been taken that would have avoided a lot of damage
of people's homes and their businesses.
如果采用这条路线，是可以避免对人们的房屋和他们的店铺，造成大量破坏的。
725
00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:15,212
But instead, only because Robert Moses had a friend
who owned one of those properties,
但是，仅仅因为罗伯特·摩西有一个朋友，拥有其中一处房产，
726
00:53:15,295 --> 00:53:18,003
he was like,'We'll avoid your one little property,
他就说，“我们会避开你那一小块房产，
727
00:53:18,087 --> 00:53:20,961
but we will destroy everybody else's,just to protect yours.'
但我们会摧毁其他人的，只是为了保护你的。”
728
00:53:21,045 --> 00:53:24,920
And I just remember reading that and being like:
我只记得，读到那篇文章时，我的反应是：
729
00:53:25,003 --> 00:53:31,795
'That is just one of the most messed-up things
I've ever heard of in my entire life.'
“这是我一生中听到的，最操蛋的事情之一。”
730
00:53:32,836 --> 00:53:37,337
Knowing that it happened in the borough of my birth
知道它就发生在我出生的地方，
731
00:53:37,420 --> 00:53:39,962
and that the work that we are doing right now
知道我们现在正在做的工作
732
00:53:40,045 --> 00:53:46,045
really is working to create changes where those damages were done.
真的是在努力改变那些造成损害的地方。
733
00:53:46,878 --> 00:53:55,045
Bob Caro's work and understanding
of how people were affected goes so beyond empathy.
鲍勃·卡罗的工作和对人们如何受到影响的理解，远远超出了同情心。
734
00:53:56,212 --> 00:54:01,128
It was so deeply, you know,profoundly supportive.
你知道，这是非常深刻的支持。
735
00:54:01,212 --> 00:54:04,295
There was healing in it, and there was strength and power in it.
这里面有治愈，有力量，还有动力。
736
00:54:04,379 --> 00:54:09,503
It wasn't just like, 'I feel for you.'It was more like, 'Use this.'
这不仅仅是“我同情你”。更像是，“用这个。”
737
00:54:09,586 --> 00:54:14,753
I really do think that book kind of weaponized the work that we're doing.
我真的认为，那本书把我们的工作“武器化”了。
738
00:54:16,220 --> 00:54:20,670
I think one interesting topic in this book is, once you gain that power,
我认为这本书中一个有趣的话题是，一旦你获得了那种权力，
739
00:54:20,753 --> 00:54:24,212
he felt like he needed to, like,keep accumulating that power.
他觉得，他需要继续积累这种权力。
740
00:54:24,295 --> 00:54:26,420
This is the history of America in the 20th century.
这是20世纪的美国历史。
741
00:54:26,503 --> 00:54:29,045
'Moses himself believes he will be justified by history,
“摩西自己相信，他会被历史证明，是公正的，
742
00:54:29,128 --> 00:54:32,878
that his works will endure and be blessed by generations not yet born.'
他的作品将会永存，并受到尚未出生的后代的祝福。”
743
00:54:32,962 --> 00:54:34,962
- So, right, that's you guys. - Yes.
-所以，没错，说的正是你们这帮人。 -是的。
744
00:54:35,045 --> 00:54:36,462
'Perhaps he is right.
“也许他是对的。
745
00:54:36,544 --> 00:54:40,711
It is impossible to say New York would have been a better city
if Robert Moses had never lived.
我们不可能说，如果罗伯特.摩西从未生活过，纽约就会成为一个更好的城市。
746
00:54:40,795 --> 00:54:44,295
It is possible to say only that it would have been a different city.'
我们只能说，那将是一座不同的城市。”
747
00:54:44,379 --> 00:54:45,379
Yeah.
是的。
748
00:54:54,345 --> 00:54:57,337
- So The Power Broker came out. - Yes.
-于是《权力掮客》出现了。 -是的。
749
00:54:57,420 --> 00:55:01,003
- Was it immediately a success? - Well, you know, it...
-它是否立即获得了成功？ -你知道的，这…
750
00:55:02,087 --> 00:55:03,087
Yes.
是的。
751
00:55:04,112 --> 00:55:06,537
As a matter of fact.
事实上，就是这样的。
752
00:55:08,954 --> 00:55:13,379
Everybody in the establishment... Mayor Wagner was furious at me.
体制内的每个人...瓦格纳市长对我大发雷霆。
753
00:55:13,462 --> 00:55:16,878
You know, Governor Rockefeller was really in a rage.
要知道，洛克菲勒州长当时真的很生气。
754
00:55:17,586 --> 00:55:22,337
And Moses, of course,was writing these stories...
当然，还有摩西，写了这些报道...
755
00:55:22,420 --> 00:55:23,795
You know, The New York Times,
你知道，《纽约时报》
756
00:55:23,878 --> 00:55:28,045
they would pretty much print whatever Robert Moses said as a fact.
几乎会把罗伯特·摩西所说的，都当成事实来刊登。
757
00:55:28,128 --> 00:55:32,670
So I would read headlines like 'Caro, Venomous Viper, '
所以我会读到“卡罗，毒蛇”这样的标题，
758
00:55:32,753 --> 00:55:33,753
that was in quotes.
是打了引号的。
759
00:55:33,837 --> 00:55:37,212
'Caro, Venomous Viper, ' comma,'Moses said.'
“卡罗，毒蛇，逗号，”摩西说。
760
00:55:38,003 --> 00:55:42,670
One day, Ina called and said,'You won the Pulitzer Prize.'
一天，伊娜打电话说：“你得了普利策奖。”
761
00:55:42,753 --> 00:55:46,545
I've never been able to get excited about things like that.
我从来没有对这样的事情，感到兴奋过。
762
00:55:47,878 --> 00:55:52,753
And she really got angry at me and she said,'Why aren't you excited?'
她真的很生我的气，她说：“你为什么不兴奋？”
763
00:55:53,879 --> 00:55:56,711
It just started to sell, you know?
它才刚开始卖，你知道吗？
764
00:55:56,795 --> 00:56:01,195
And it's gone right on selling,without stopping,
它一直在销售，没有停止过。（《权力掮客》第41版付印）
765
00:56:01,878 --> 00:56:03,420
for almost half a century.
已经差不多半个世纪了。
766
00:56:03,503 --> 00:56:07,962
And almost as long as Robert Moses was in power,now that I think about.
几乎和罗伯特·摩西掌权的时间一样长，现在我想起来了。
767
00:56:16,962 --> 00:56:21,837
So The Power Broker was out and the question was what he would write next.
《权力掮客》出版了，问题是他接下来会写什么。
768
00:56:22,228 --> 00:56:27,670
One thing I can't stand to do is to do
something I've done before over again.
我不能忍受的一件事，就是把以前做过的事，再做一遍。
769
00:56:27,753 --> 00:56:29,878
I just can't stand it.
我就是不能忍受这样。
770
00:56:30,586 --> 00:56:35,129
So in order to get enough money to finish The Power Broker,
因此，为了筹到足够的钱来完成《权力掮客》，
771
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:37,795
I had to sign a two-book contract
我不得不签下两本书的合同，
772
00:56:37,878 --> 00:56:42,212
for a biography of Robert Moses and a biography of Fiorello LaGuardia.
分别写一本罗伯特·摩西的传记和一本菲奥雷洛·拉瓜迪亚的传记。
773
00:56:42,295 --> 00:56:46,295
菲奥雷洛.拉.瓜迪亚，1934-1945年任纽约市长
So I finish The Power Broker and I'm starting in on LaGuardia,
我完成了《权力掮客》，就要着手写拉.瓜迪亚了，
774
00:56:46,379 --> 00:56:48,837
and I'm thinking, 'I just hate this.
我在想，“我就是讨厌这样。
775
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:53,545
I did this story. It's New York.I already did it.' You know?
我做了这个故事。这是纽约。我已经写过了。”你知道吗?
776
00:56:54,421 --> 00:56:59,545
In The Power Broker, I was trying to show urban political power.
在《权力掮客》中，我试图展示城市的政治权力。
777
00:56:59,628 --> 00:57:02,462
Now I wanted to show national political power.
现在，我想展示国家的政治权力。
778
00:57:02,545 --> 00:57:05,337
And I thought, I could do it through Lyndon Johnson.
我想，我可以通过写林登·约翰逊，来做这件事。
779
00:57:05,421 --> 00:57:07,421
That's the guy to do it through.
这就是我要找的人。
780
00:57:07,503 --> 00:57:10,254
But nobody's gonna let me out of the LaGuardia contract.
但没人会让我解除那份，写拉瓜迪亚的合同。
781
00:57:10,337 --> 00:57:13,003
Your father called, and he said:
你父亲打电话来说：
782
00:57:13,087 --> 00:57:17,087
'There's something I want to talk to you about.'
“我有件事，想跟你谈谈。”
783
00:57:17,170 --> 00:57:23,920
I think he said something like,'I want you to hear me out.
Don't lose your temper until I finish.'
我想他说的大概是，“我想让你听我说完。别发脾气，等我说完再说。”
784
00:57:24,003 --> 00:57:27,003
So I came in and he basically says:
这样，我刚说完，他就说：
785
00:57:27,087 --> 00:57:31,421
'Now, I know that you're really committed to this LaGuardia biography.'
“现在，我知你对拉.瓜迪亚的传记，很感兴趣。”
786
00:57:31,687 --> 00:57:39,920
I said, you know,'LaGuardia is a fascinating figure,
but I don't think this is a big enough subject.
我说，“拉瓜迪亚是个迷人的人物，但我认为，这不是一个足够大的主题。
787
00:57:40,003 --> 00:57:42,379
What you're interested in is in power.'
你感兴趣的是权力。”
788
00:57:43,254 --> 00:57:46,753
And out of my mouth came these words,
而这是从我嘴里，说出了这些话，
789
00:57:46,837 --> 00:57:50,837
which I had not really considered before,
which is the way I usually operate.
我以前从来没有真正考虑过，这是我通常的操作方式。
790
00:57:51,795 --> 00:57:55,003
'I think the person you should write about is Lyndon Johnson
“我认为，你应该写的人是林登·约翰逊，
791
00:57:55,087 --> 00:58:00,545
because he exemplifies the use of power more than anyone else
in our time.'
因为在我们这个时代，他比任何人都更能体现权力的运用。”
792
00:58:00,628 --> 00:58:03,337
Bob had come in to say:
鲍勃，他接着说：
793
00:58:04,453 --> 00:58:08,337
'I think the person I should write about is Lyndon Johnson.'
“我觉得，我应该写的人是林登·约翰逊。”
794
00:58:08,837 --> 00:58:12,670
'But, ' he said, 'there's a problem.It's a gigantic story.'
“但是，”他说，“有一个问题。这是一个宏大的故事。”
795
00:58:12,937 --> 00:58:16,628
I said, 'But I wanna do it in volumes
我说，“但我想把它做成，分卷出版，
796
00:58:16,712 --> 00:58:21,421
because I never wanna cut out anything
that we think should be in it again.'
因为，我不想剪掉任何，我们认为应该出现在书里的内容。”
797
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,628
And he agreed, in my memory, immediately.
在我的记忆中，他是立刻，就同意了。
798
00:58:25,712 --> 00:58:26,712
So...
所以...
799
00:58:27,329 --> 00:58:33,379
we sort of looked at each other with a wild surmise, and it was done.
我们用一种可说是“野性的狐疑”，盯着对方，然后就这么定了。
800
00:58:33,462 --> 00:58:37,753
And he said, 'But how can I afford it?
This is gonna take me... Who knows?'
他说，“但我怎么付得起呢？这要花我...谁知道呢？”
801
00:58:37,837 --> 00:58:40,753
We thought three volumes, was the idea.
我们想要的，装订成三卷。
802
00:58:40,837 --> 00:58:42,421
'And what am I gonna live on?'
“那我靠什么生活呢？”
803
00:58:42,503 --> 00:58:47,421
And I said,'You know,that's not your problem.
Lynn and I will work that out.'
我说，“你知道，这不是你的问题。林恩和我会解决的。”
804
00:58:56,129 --> 00:58:59,129
When we launched ourselves into this project,
当我们开始这个项目时，
805
00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:04,654
we had no way of knowing that we would be
at it for the rest of our lives.
我们不知道，我们会在各自的余生中，做完这件事。
806
00:59:08,203 --> 00:59:13,670
People are always asking me why I picked
Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson to write about.
人们总是问我，为什么选择罗伯特·摩西和林登·约翰逊作为写作对象。
807
00:59:13,753 --> 00:59:16,878
From the first time I thought of writing biographies,
从我第一次想到写传记开始，
808
00:59:16,962 --> 00:59:19,628
I thought of them as a means of illuminating
我就把它们看作是一种阐明
809
00:59:19,712 --> 00:59:22,337
the times of the men I was writing about
我所写的人物的时代
810
00:59:22,421 --> 00:59:25,545
and the great forces that shaped those times,
和塑造那个时代，伟大力量的手段，
811
00:59:25,628 --> 00:59:29,004
particularly the force that is political power.
尤其是政治权力。
812
00:59:29,087 --> 00:59:31,878
This administration today
本届政府今天
813
00:59:31,962 --> 00:59:37,004
declares unconditional war on poverty in America.
向美国的贫困，无条件地宣战。
814
00:59:38,379 --> 00:59:42,170
Every time a youth from a poor family gets to go to college
每当一个来自贫困家庭的年轻人，
815
00:59:42,254 --> 00:59:46,004
because of one of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs,
因为林登·约翰逊的伟大社会计划，而进入大学，
816
00:59:46,087 --> 00:59:49,004
that's an example of political power.
这就是政治权力的一个例子。
817
00:59:51,087 --> 00:59:54,878
Every time a Black man or woman is able to walk into a voting booth
每当一个黑人男性或女性，能够走进投票站时，
818
00:59:54,962 --> 00:59:58,129
because of Lyndon Johnson's Voting Rights Act,
就因为林登·约翰逊的《投票权法案》，
819
00:59:58,212 --> 01:00:01,379
that is a more significant example of political power.
这都是政治权力的一个更重要的例子。
820
01:00:05,453 --> 01:00:09,296
And so, unfortunately,is the fact of a young man,
因此，不幸的是，一个年轻人，
821
01:00:09,379 --> 01:00:11,587
tens of thousands of young men,
成千上万的年轻人，
822
01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:15,920
dying a needless death in a useless war in Vietnam.
在一场毫无意义的越南战争中，无谓地死去。
823
01:00:17,004 --> 01:00:20,129
Caro knew just how to get to Johnson,
卡罗知道，如何去接近约翰逊，
824
01:00:20,553 --> 01:00:23,670
insofar as another human being could.
就像接近另一个普通人那样。
825
01:00:23,753 --> 01:00:26,712
What was it about this man that was special?
这个人有什么特别之处？
826
01:00:26,795 --> 01:00:28,421
Positive and negative.
积极和消极。
827
01:00:28,879 --> 01:00:34,795
比尔.克林顿，总统
How can a guy with so much self-confidence in the Senate,
一个在参议院如此自信的人，
828
01:00:35,337 --> 01:00:40,421
and the ability to pass this achingly difficult civil-rights bill,
有能力通过这个极其困难的《民权法案》，
829
01:00:40,503 --> 01:00:45,712
how could he be so insecure and so worried about looking weak...
他怎么能如此缺乏安全感，如此担心自己显得软弱...
830
01:00:48,045 --> 01:00:52,462
that he thought he had to keep tiptoeing toward disaster in Vietnam?
他认为，他必须小心翼翼地面对越南的灾难？
831
01:00:53,729 --> 01:00:58,296
Caro tries to figure out a way to answer questions like that...
卡罗试图找出一个方法，来回答这样的问题...
832
01:00:59,062 --> 01:01:03,795
in a way that does not dehumanize the subject he's writing about.
以一种，不会使他所写的对象，失去人性的方式。
833
01:01:04,879 --> 01:01:05,879
So...
所以...
834
01:01:06,712 --> 01:01:09,628
And I think he believes that's important in democracy.
我认为他相信，这对民主很重要。
835
01:01:09,712 --> 01:01:14,879
It's important to see imperfect people who have great aspirations
看到不完美的人，有伟大的抱负是很重要的，
836
01:01:15,628 --> 01:01:19,879
and personal ambitions,which may or may not be base...
还有他的个人野心，不管这是不是低劣的...
837
01:01:22,503 --> 01:01:24,670
but how, if it all works,
但是，如果一切顺利，
838
01:01:24,753 --> 01:01:32,462
you produce better outcomes for more people
than under any other system the world has yet devised.
你如何为更多的人，创造比世界上任何其他制度，都更好的结果？
839
01:01:32,545 --> 01:01:34,187
And a lot of people don't agree with that.
很多人不同意这一点。
840
01:01:34,212 --> 01:01:38,129
Democracy has been on the back foot for the last few years.
民主在过去几年里，一直处于不利地位。
841
01:01:39,421 --> 01:01:42,670
The real importance to me of Caro's work
卡罗的作品，对我来说真正重要的是，
842
01:01:42,753 --> 01:01:46,670
is that people will see the stories of
人们会看到那些故事，
843
01:01:46,753 --> 01:01:52,171
dedicated, dreaming, imperfect people...
关于那些有贡献的，赋予梦想的，有缺点的人们...
844
01:01:54,087 --> 01:01:56,920
who figured out how to do democracy well enough
他们想出了，如何把民主做得足够好，
845
01:01:57,004 --> 01:02:00,212
to leave people better off when they quit than when they started.
让人们在退出时，比开始时，过得更好。
846
01:02:05,171 --> 01:02:09,753
Doing Lyndon Johnson presented me with a problem I hadn't had with Moses.
写林登·约翰逊，给我带来了一个，在我写摩西时，没有遇到过的问题。
847
01:02:09,837 --> 01:02:13,129
I grew up in New York.I was a New York City boy.
我在纽约长大。我是一个纽约“城市男孩”。
848
01:02:13,212 --> 01:02:15,421
I knew the world of Robert Moses.
我了解罗伯特·摩西的世界。
849
01:02:15,503 --> 01:02:18,962
I didn't know the world in which Lyndon Johnson grew up:
我不知道林登·约翰逊成长的那个世界：
850
01:02:19,045 --> 01:02:21,337
The world of the Texas Hill Country.
德克萨斯州希尔乡村的世界。
851
01:02:29,963 --> 01:02:34,087
The people of Hill Country are very different from people in New York.
希尔山区的人，与纽约市的人，很不一样。
852
01:02:34,171 --> 01:02:37,212
There's a real honorable-ness about them.
他们有一种真正的荣誉感。
853
01:02:40,421 --> 01:02:42,712
And they're not gonna lie.
他们不会撒谎的。
854
01:02:42,795 --> 01:02:49,920
LBJ在1925年的照片
But they also felt it was wrong to say anything bad
about a president of the United States.
但他们也觉得，说美国总统的坏话，是不对的。
855
01:02:50,004 --> 01:02:56,503
So I felt that
what they were telling me was a lot short of the real stories.
所以，我觉得，他们告诉我的，与真实的故事，相差甚远。
856
01:02:57,795 --> 01:03:01,212
I wasn't understanding their mores,their values,
我不理解他们的风俗习惯，他们的价值观，
857
01:03:01,296 --> 01:03:04,463
that were obviously so different from mine.
显然与我的，截然不同。
858
01:03:04,545 --> 01:03:07,962
So I said to Ina, 'You know,I'm not understanding these people,
所以我对伊娜说，“你知道，我不理解这些人，
859
01:03:08,046 --> 01:03:11,171
and therefore I'm not understanding Lyndon Johnson.
因此我也不理解林登·约翰逊。
860
01:03:11,254 --> 01:03:15,421
We'll have to move to the Hill Country and live there for a while.'
我们得搬到希尔乡村，去住一段时间。”
861
01:03:15,503 --> 01:03:19,421
Ina said, 'Can't you write a biography of Napoleon?'
伊娜说：“你就不能写一本，拿破仑的传记吗？”
862
01:03:30,879 --> 01:03:34,920
-You see a bunch of houses over there? -So that's where we're going?
-你看到那边一堆房子了吗？ -那就是我们要去的地方？
863
01:03:35,004 --> 01:03:37,296
- Yes, we are. - All right, let's go.
-是的，是我们要去的地方。 -那好吧，我们去吧。
864
01:03:38,421 --> 01:03:41,712
- Aren't you glad you came, honey? - Oh, absolutely.
-你来了不高兴吗，亲爱的？ -哦，当然了。
865
01:03:44,795 --> 01:03:46,503
It's been a long time.
好久不见了。
866
01:03:46,587 --> 01:03:51,171
It's been a long... A long time.
好久不见了...很长一段时间。
867
01:03:51,221 --> 01:03:53,221
（为了研究林登约翰逊，卡罗要体验他的生活）
868
01:03:53,421 --> 01:03:56,670
He doesn't go visit the Hill Country of Texas.
他不是去参观了，德克萨斯州的希尔乡村。
869
01:03:56,754 --> 01:03:58,254
He goes and moves in.
他是搬了过去。
870
01:03:59,379 --> 01:04:02,670
He moves in! He goes and lives there.Who does that?
他搬家过去了！他去那里，住了下来。谁会这么做？
871
01:04:03,463 --> 01:04:04,754
Who does that?
谁会这么做？
872
01:04:06,628 --> 01:04:10,254
Living in the Hill Country of Texas for three years
在德克萨斯州的希尔乡村生活三年，
873
01:04:10,338 --> 01:04:14,754
is not natural territory for nice,little Jewish boys from New York.
对于来自纽约的善良的犹太小男孩来说，是不自然的地盘。
874
01:04:15,545 --> 01:04:18,171
But going to Texas was obviously essential.
但去德克萨斯州，显然是必要的。
875
01:04:19,587 --> 01:04:23,254
This is really the kind of house that Lyndon Johnson grew up in,
这确实是林登·约翰逊长大的那种房子，
876
01:04:23,338 --> 01:04:26,670
but it was smaller and more dilapidated than this.
但它比这更小，更破旧。
877
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,754
When I first came here right at the beginning of doing the books,
当我刚开始来到这里，写这本书的时候，
878
01:04:31,837 --> 01:04:35,754
in 1976 or 1977,
是在1976年或是1977年，
879
01:04:35,837 --> 01:04:38,338
these were women and men
这些女人和男人
880
01:04:38,421 --> 01:04:45,837
who were living in lives of almost incredible loneliness and desolation.
他们过着难以置信的，孤独和荒凉的生活。
881
01:04:47,004 --> 01:04:48,545
When I was in high school,
当我在高中的时候，
882
01:04:48,629 --> 01:04:52,087
伊娜.卡罗，作家兼研究员，鲍勃.卡罗的妻子
I had decided I was either gonna be a dancer or a researcher.
我决定了我要成为一名舞蹈演员，或者一名研究员。
883
01:04:52,171 --> 01:04:59,545
And it was just sort of a miracle
that Bob asked me to do a little research for him.
鲍勃让我为他做一点研究，这简直是个奇迹。
884
01:04:59,629 --> 01:05:02,046
Did it feel like a big sacrifice to come here?
来这里，是不是觉得是有很大的牺牲？
885
01:05:02,129 --> 01:05:04,129
Oh, God, no! It was exciting.
哦，上帝，不！太令人兴奋了。
886
01:05:04,212 --> 01:05:09,129
It was so different from anything in New York. It is a whole new world.
这里和纽约的任何地方，都不一样。这是一个全新的世界。
887
01:05:09,829 --> 01:05:13,171
We learned something new every day.
我们每天都学到新东西。
888
01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:16,379
- Hi, Mr. Caro. - Bob Caro.
-你好，卡罗先生。 -鲍勃·卡罗
889
01:05:16,463 --> 01:05:18,879
Nice to meet you, sir. I'm Susie Corlette.
很高兴见到你，先生。我是苏西.科莱特。
890
01:05:18,962 --> 01:05:20,879
- It's a pleasure to meet you. - Yes, sir.
-很高兴认识你。 -是的，先生。
891
01:05:20,962 --> 01:05:23,254
Thank you for making the trouble to do this.
谢谢你不辞辛苦地为我做这件事。
892
01:05:23,338 --> 01:05:25,837
Oh, sure, no problem. Anytime. Anytime.
哦，当然，没问题。任何时候。都愿意效劳。
893
01:05:26,037 --> 01:05:29,037
(得克萨斯州，约翰逊市)
894
01:05:30,421 --> 01:05:37,545
Whatever the secret was to Lyndon Johnson's
very unusual personality,
不管林登·约翰逊不同寻常的性格背后，有什么秘密，
895
01:05:38,129 --> 01:05:44,338
it had to go back to that boyhood
and that terrible relationship he had had with his father.
这都要追溯到他的童年时代，以及他和父亲之间糟糕的关系。
896
01:05:45,503 --> 01:05:48,754
They don't have the dining table the way it used to be.
他们的餐桌和以前不一样了。
897
01:05:50,670 --> 01:05:56,087
Well, we're in the home that the Johnson family moved to.
那么，我们进入了约翰逊一家搬走后的房子里。
898
01:05:56,171 --> 01:06:00,046
It's called the boyhood home.It was a very unhappy house.
它被称为“童年之家”。这是一所非常不幸的房子。
899
01:06:00,129 --> 01:06:04,754
The father's health had been broken by his failure.
父亲的健康，因他的事业失败，而受到损害。
900
01:06:04,837 --> 01:06:07,171
There was no money in this house.
这个家庭没有钱。
901
01:06:07,254 --> 01:06:11,463
There was often no food in the house because the mother was often sick.
家里经常没有食物，因为母亲经常生病。
902
01:06:11,962 --> 01:06:15,087
So his boyhood was unhappy.
所以，他的童年并不快乐。
903
01:06:16,795 --> 01:06:20,129
So I wanted to recreate that to try to understand that.
所以，我想再创造它，试图理解它。
904
01:06:20,213 --> 01:06:24,213
Sam Houston Johnson was Lyndon Johnson's younger brother.
山姆·休斯顿·约翰逊是林登·约翰逊的弟弟。
905
01:06:24,296 --> 01:06:27,338
They were very close, he and Lyndon.
他们非常亲密，他和林登。
906
01:06:27,421 --> 01:06:29,087
Sam drank a lot.
山姆酒量很大。
907
01:06:29,837 --> 01:06:36,545
And he was one of these people who were full of braggadocio
and bravado and exaggeration.
他是那种，夸夸其谈、虚张声势、夸大其词的人。
908
01:06:36,629 --> 01:06:42,129
And in my case, the exaggeration often shaded into untruthfulness.
在我看来，他那种夸张，常常变成了不真实。
909
01:06:42,213 --> 01:06:45,379
（手里拿着《我的哥哥林登》）
So I decided, I'm not gonna speak to him anymore.
所以我决定，我不打算和他谈话了。
910
01:06:45,463 --> 01:06:47,921
（手里拿着《我的哥哥林登》）
So then, after about a year,
大约过了一年，
911
01:06:48,004 --> 01:06:53,046
I had heard during this year that
he had had a terrible operation for cancer
我听说，这一年他做了一个可怕的癌症手术，
912
01:06:53,795 --> 01:06:56,504
and that he had stopped drinking.
而且他已经戒酒了。
913
01:06:56,587 --> 01:07:03,379
One day, I was walking along the street in Johnson City,
and there was Sam Houston Johnson coming towards me.
一天，我走在约翰逊市的街上，山姆·休斯顿·约翰逊朝我走来。
914
01:07:04,171 --> 01:07:06,545
We went to have a cup of coffee.
我们去喝了杯咖啡。
915
01:07:06,771 --> 01:07:13,379
And the man sitting next to me at the counter
was a very different man than he had been a year before.
和一年前相比，在柜台前，坐在我旁边的那个人，已经判若两人了。
916
01:07:13,463 --> 01:07:17,629
He was very quiet.I decided to try to talk to him again.
他很安静。我决定再试着和他谈话。
917
01:07:17,712 --> 01:07:24,004
I thought of a way to make Sam Houston Johnson
remember this the best way he could.
我想到了一个，让山姆·休斯顿·约翰逊记住这件事的，最好方法。
918
01:07:24,670 --> 01:07:29,796
In the dining room,the Johnsons had a long plank table.
在餐厅里，约翰逊家有一张长木板桌子。
919
01:07:29,879 --> 01:07:34,504
The father sat in a big chair at one end,
the mother in a high chair at the other end.
父亲坐在一头的大椅子上，母亲坐在另一头的高椅子上。
920
01:07:35,296 --> 01:07:40,962
Lyndon and his brother sat on one side of the table,
and the three sisters sat on the other.
林登和他弟弟坐在桌子的一边，三个姐妹坐在另一边。
921
01:07:41,046 --> 01:07:44,129
I got permission to bring him into this house.
我得到许可，把他带进这房子里。
922
01:07:44,213 --> 01:07:46,171
We were all alone in the house,
屋子里只有我们两个，
923
01:07:46,254 --> 01:07:52,171
and I asked him to sit down at the place
in the table that he had always had,
我请他坐在，他小时候在那张桌子旁，经常坐的位置，
924
01:07:52,254 --> 01:07:55,629
between his father and Lyndon,when he was a boy.
那是他父亲和林登之间的位置。
925
01:07:56,254 --> 01:07:58,254
And I sat behind him...
我坐在他后面...
926
01:07:59,004 --> 01:08:02,921
because I wanted him to be alone with his memories.
因为我想让他，独自面对记忆。
927
01:08:03,837 --> 01:08:07,729
And it was interesting because we were sitting there around dinner hour,
这很有趣，因为我们是在晚餐时间，坐在那里的，
928
01:08:07,813 --> 01:08:12,712
so the shadows coming into the room from the sun
所以，从太阳照射进房间的阴影，
929
01:08:12,796 --> 01:08:17,629
were the same shadows
that would have come into that room at the dinner time.
和晚餐时间，射进入房间的阴影，是一样的。
930
01:08:17,712 --> 01:08:18,962
And I said to him:
我对他说：
931
01:08:19,629 --> 01:08:23,962
'Now, Sam Houston,tell me about your father and Lyndon,
“现在，萨姆·休斯顿，告诉我关于你父亲和林登的事，
932
01:08:24,921 --> 01:08:27,879
and what they would say to each other at the table.'
以及他们在餐桌上，会说些什么。”
933
01:08:27,962 --> 01:08:30,338
And at first it was very slow going.
一开始，进展非常缓慢。
934
01:08:30,921 --> 01:08:37,504
But after a while,as he started to talk to me,Lizzie,that dropped away.
但过了一会儿，当他开始和我说话时，丽齐，那种感觉消失了。
935
01:08:38,129 --> 01:08:42,545
And suddenly he was back in that dinner table,as I had hoped.
突然间，他又回到了餐桌上，正如我所希望的那样。
936
01:08:42,629 --> 01:08:48,921
He was yelling, 'Lyndon, you're a failure.
You're always gonna be a failure.
他大喊，“林登，你是个失败者。你永远都是失败者。
937
01:08:49,004 --> 01:08:50,796
You're not college material.'
你不是上大学的料。”
938
01:08:50,879 --> 01:08:56,171
Lyndon, 'And what are you? You're a bus inspector!
That's what you've been!'
林登，“你算是什么？你不过是公共汽车检票员！你也就这点儿出息了！”
939
01:08:57,213 --> 01:09:00,254
And he went on. And I said to him:
而他想继续。这是我跟他说：
940
01:09:01,504 --> 01:09:07,254
'Now, Sam Houston, I want you to tell me those wonderful anecdotes
“现在，萨姆·休斯顿，我想让你告诉我些，美妙的奇闻轶事，
941
01:09:08,129 --> 01:09:11,946
that everybody else told me about Lyndon Johnson growing up
其他人告诉我的，都是林登·约翰逊成长经历，
942
01:09:12,029 --> 01:09:17,213
that you told me, only this time tell them to me with more details.
只有这次，你刚跟我说的，告诉了我，关于它们的更多细节。
943
01:09:18,046 --> 01:09:19,879
And I'll never forget this.
我永远不会忘记这件事。
944
01:09:20,504 --> 01:09:26,879
There was this long, long pause which I was determined not to break.
接下是一段，很长、很长的沉默，我决心不打破它。
945
01:09:27,938 --> 01:09:32,463
And he said, finally, 'I can't.'
最后他说：“我不能。”
946
01:09:33,545 --> 01:09:36,587
And I said, 'Why not?'
我说，“为什么不能？”
947
01:09:37,587 --> 01:09:41,545
And he said,'Because they never happened.'
他说，“因为它们从来没有发生过。”
948
01:09:42,213 --> 01:09:46,504
And then he started to tell me a whole different story
然后，他开始给我讲一个完全不同的故事，
949
01:09:46,587 --> 01:09:49,671
of Lyndon Johnson's youth which was, to me...
关于林登·约翰逊的青年时代，对我来说...
950
01:09:51,171 --> 01:09:53,921
poignant, terrible, in a way,
某种程度上，这是令人心酸的，可怕的，
951
01:09:54,004 --> 01:09:58,088
but also revealed how the Lyndon Johnson became
但也揭示了林登·约翰逊是如何成为
952
01:09:58,754 --> 01:10:03,004
this unusual person who became president of the United States.
这个不寻常的人，并成为美国总统的。
953
01:10:05,421 --> 01:10:10,963
When I was young, poverty was so common that we didn't know it had a name.
在我年轻的时候，贫穷是如此普遍，以至于我们都不知道，它有一个名字。
954
01:10:12,004 --> 01:10:15,879
And education was something that you had to fight for.
教育，是你必须为之奋斗而得到的东西。
955
01:10:17,463 --> 01:10:22,046
And water was really life itself.
而水，实际上就是生命本身。
956
01:10:22,963 --> 01:10:26,338
And now I am the president.
而现在，我是总统。
957
01:10:27,879 --> 01:10:30,338
It is now my opportunity...
现在，是我的机会...
958
01:10:31,380 --> 01:10:34,254
to help every child get an education.
帮助每个孩子接受教育。
959
01:10:35,296 --> 01:10:40,421
To help every Negro and every American citizen...
去帮助每一个黑人和每一个美国公民...
960
01:10:41,338 --> 01:10:43,380
have an equal opportunity.
拥有一个平等的机会。
961
01:10:46,213 --> 01:10:51,629
How do you make the reader feel how desperate a man is?
你如何让读者感受到，一个人有多绝望？
962
01:10:53,213 --> 01:10:58,921
Not just read it, but feel it,but see it and feel it himself,
你不仅要读，还要感受，还要亲眼目睹，还要设身处地替他感受，
963
01:10:59,629 --> 01:11:02,879
feel this desperation of Lyndon Johnson himself.
感受林登·约翰逊的绝望。
964
01:11:04,463 --> 01:11:06,754
I'd write on an index card...
我会在索引卡上写...
965
01:11:08,129 --> 01:11:10,671
and Scotch-tape to the lamp in front of me:
在我面前的台灯上，用透明胶贴上：
966
01:11:10,754 --> 01:11:13,996
'Is there desperation on this page?'
“这一页上，写出绝望了吗？”
967
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:21,754
And I can't tell you how many days that card stays up there.
我也不知道，那张卡会在那里呆多久。
968
01:11:37,754 --> 01:11:40,254
（山姆.E.约翰逊农舍，第36届美国总统
林登.贝纳斯.约翰逊的出生地）
969
01:11:40,363 --> 01:11:43,380
When you start reading the Johnson biography,
当你开始读约翰逊的传记时，
970
01:11:43,463 --> 01:11:48,963
丹尼尔.门德尔松，作家兼评论家
and you get the entire history of...Not even the Johnson family,
你会得到整个历史...甚至不包括约翰逊一家，
971
01:11:49,046 --> 01:11:54,463
but sort of the whole history of the people
who have been living in this part of Texas,you could say...
但你可以说是，生活在德克萨斯这一地区的人们的整个历史...
972
01:11:54,546 --> 01:11:56,796
Another biographer would say:
另一位传记作者会说：
973
01:11:56,879 --> 01:12:03,546
'Oh, you know, Johnson was shaped
by his hardscrabble childhood in the Texas Hill Country.'
“哦，你知道，约翰逊在德州山区度过的艰苦童年，给他带来了很大的影响。”
974
01:12:03,629 --> 01:12:07,380
But to give you 150 pages in which you...
但是给你150页，让你在里面...
975
01:12:07,463 --> 01:12:13,213
When you finally get to Johnson and his childhood,
you yourself feel like you have gone through that.
当你最终了解到，约翰逊和他的童年时，你会觉得，自己也经历了这一切。
976
01:12:17,838 --> 01:12:24,004
With the Johnson books,we've had some real fights
about sections that he's wanted to cut out.
在写约翰逊的书中，我们对他想删掉的部分，有过一些真正的争论。
977
01:12:24,088 --> 01:12:27,380
Like a section about the grass in the Hill Country.
比如关于在希尔乡村草地上的那一章节。
978
01:12:27,463 --> 01:12:30,796
He wrote something insulting in the margin.
他在页边空白处，写了一些侮辱性的话。
979
01:12:30,879 --> 01:12:34,213
That was a tremendous battle, really.
那真的是一场“激烈的战斗”。
980
01:12:34,296 --> 01:12:37,921
Angry. I mean, an angry, angry battle.
生气。我是说，一场愤怒的战斗。
981
01:12:38,004 --> 01:12:42,129
If he feels that I was pressing him very hard to reduce this material,
如果他觉得，我在极力催促他减少这些材料时，
982
01:12:42,213 --> 01:12:46,255
it was clearly not because I didn't think it was valuable material.
那显然不是，因为我不认为，这是有价值的材料。
983
01:12:46,338 --> 01:12:50,504
It's because I probably felt that it was somewhat out of proportion.
这可能是因为，我觉得这有点不成比例。
984
01:12:50,587 --> 01:12:55,671
It was not that I was trying to tear
his bleeding heart out of his chest or out of his book.
我并不是想把他那颗流血的心，从他的胸膛或书里扯出来。
985
01:12:56,213 --> 01:12:58,546
But I just wasn't gonna do that.
但我不打算那么做。
986
01:12:58,629 --> 01:13:02,296
- How long would that go on? - That battle go on?
-那会持续多久？ -战斗还在继续吗？
987
01:13:06,380 --> 01:13:07,629
It wasn't a day.
这可不是一天了。
988
01:13:09,296 --> 01:13:13,921
It wasn't one day.And a lot of angry things were said.
一天都受不了。还说了很多愤怒的话。
989
01:13:17,088 --> 01:13:19,296
Sometimes you see,I'm looking for an adjective.
有时候你看，我在找一个形容词。
990
01:13:19,380 --> 01:13:21,963
I make a whole list,a whole page full of adjectives.
我列了一整张表，一整页都是形容词。
991
01:13:22,046 --> 01:13:25,754
You know, there is a mot juste.
你知道，这是不公平的。
992
01:13:25,838 --> 01:13:28,088
There is a best word.
有一个最好的词。
993
01:13:29,046 --> 01:13:34,629
And it's my job to try to find that best word.
而我的工作，就是找到最好的词。
994
01:13:35,712 --> 01:13:38,546
He's a word painter. He paints with words.
他是个“文字画家”。他用文字作画。
995
01:13:38,629 --> 01:13:44,504
You said that it irritates you,his use of the word 'looms.'
你说，他用“若隐若现”这个词，让你很恼火。
996
01:13:44,587 --> 01:13:47,171
Oh, I have nothing against that word.
哦，我并不反对这个词。
997
01:13:47,255 --> 01:13:49,088
I cherish the word 'looms, '
我很喜欢“若隐若现”这个词，
998
01:13:49,171 --> 01:13:54,088
but not when it's used X number of times in Y number of pages.
但当它在无数页中，被使用了无数次时，我就不喜欢它了。
999
01:13:54,171 --> 01:13:57,088
Because then it looms too frequently.
因为那样它就会频繁出现。
1000
01:13:58,338 --> 01:14:00,838
Why do you think that word,he uses so much?
你觉得，他为什么经常用那个词？
1001
01:14:00,921 --> 01:14:03,504
It's a dramatic word,and he likes dramatic words,
这是一个戏剧性的词，他喜欢戏剧性的词，
1002
01:14:03,587 --> 01:14:05,213
and he uses them very well.
他用得很好。
1003
01:14:05,296 --> 01:14:08,380
But if he overuses them or repeats them too much,
但如果他过度使用或重复这些词，
1004
01:14:08,463 --> 01:14:10,296
it doesn't read well.
那就不好读了。
1005
01:14:10,380 --> 01:14:14,879
Bob always wants to make sure that the reader has really got it.
鲍勃总是想确保读者真的理解了。
1006
01:14:16,879 --> 01:14:21,713
And I have, maybe,
more faith in the reader because that's what I am, a reader.
也许，我对读者更有信心，因为这就是我，一个读者。
1007
01:14:21,796 --> 01:14:23,046
I got it.
我明白了。
1008
01:14:24,171 --> 01:14:27,171
For them, what is important is what's on the page.
对他们来说，重要的是页面上的内容。
1009
01:14:27,255 --> 01:14:30,629
Words matter. Mood matters.Paragraphs matter.
用词很重要。情绪很重要。分段很重要。
1010
01:14:30,713 --> 01:14:32,879
A sense of place matters. Rhythm matters.
场景很重要。韵律很重要。
1011
01:14:32,963 --> 01:14:36,422
凯西.霍瑞根，克诺夫出版社总编辑
Commas matter. Semicolons matter.And the fights go on.
甚至是逗号。分号。争吵还在继续。
1012
01:14:36,963 --> 01:14:39,504
But what the fights are about... Not fights.
但是争吵是为了什么… 不是争吵。
1013
01:14:39,587 --> 01:14:44,546
It's all about what's on the page
'cause they both want the best book possible. They both do.
最重要的是书页上的内容，因为他们都想要最好的书。他们都是。
1014
01:14:44,629 --> 01:14:46,110
And they both want it for each other.
他们都希望对方也能得到。
1015
01:14:46,310 --> 01:14:49,810
（1982年，《林登约翰逊年代》第一卷《通往权力之路》）
1016
01:15:03,038 --> 01:15:06,638
（子公司克诺普夫出版社总裁戈特利布，
将接替肖恩，出任母公司《纽约客》的编辑）
1017
01:15:06,738 --> 01:15:10,255
When he left Knopf to go to The New Yorker,
当他离任克诺普夫出版社，晋升到《纽约客》时，
1018
01:15:10,338 --> 01:15:13,629
the next day,my phone was ringing all day
第二天，我的电话整天响个不停，
1019
01:15:13,713 --> 01:15:18,838
with various heads of publishing houses
wanting to take me to Rao's for dinner.
各家出版社的负责人，都想请我去拉奥家吃意大利餐。
（位于纽约哈莱姆的一家最难预订的意大利餐厅）
1020
01:15:18,921 --> 01:15:24,422
And in the midst of all this,your father called me, and he said:
在这中间，你父亲打电话给我，他说：
1021
01:15:24,504 --> 01:15:30,380
'If you stay at Knopf, I will promise you I will edit your book twice,
“如果你留在克诺普夫，我保证我会把你的书编辑两次，
1022
01:15:30,463 --> 01:15:34,879
once as a magazine serial and once as a book.'
一次作为一本杂志来连载，一次作为一本书来出版。”
1023
01:15:34,963 --> 01:15:38,838
And everybody said to me,'He'll never be able to do that.
每个人都对我说，“他永远也做不到。
1024
01:15:38,921 --> 01:15:43,713
You know, he may intend to do that,but the job of The New Yorker,
你知道，他可能打算这么做，但考虑他在《纽约客》的工作，
1025
01:15:43,796 --> 01:15:49,088
it's a weekly magazine,
and he's simply not gonna have time to edit it as a book.'
是可一本周刊啊，他根本没有时间，把它编辑成书。”
1026
01:15:49,171 --> 01:15:54,063
And my feeling was,if he says he'll do it, he'll do it.
我的感觉是，如果他说他会做到，他就会做到。
1027
01:15:59,004 --> 01:16:01,422
I grew up on The New Yorker.
我是看《纽约客》长大的。
1028
01:16:01,504 --> 01:16:06,213
Like any professional middle-class child
of a family like mine in the '40s,
就像40年代，我这样的中产阶级家庭的孩子一样，
1029
01:16:06,297 --> 01:16:08,046
The New Yorker was like the Bible.
《纽约客》就像《圣经》。
1030
01:16:09,422 --> 01:16:13,587
The New Yorker arrived every week as part of the punctuation of our lives.
《纽约客》每周都来，成为我们生活中的“标点符号”。
1031
01:16:16,546 --> 01:16:21,088
To my astonishment,and yet not total surprise,
令我惊讶的是，但并非完全出乎意料，
1032
01:16:21,921 --> 01:16:24,297
I ended up the editor of The New Yorker.
我最终成为了《纽约客》的编辑。
1033
01:16:25,354 --> 01:16:26,796
A magazine.
一本杂志。
1034
01:16:27,754 --> 01:16:32,130
Of course,the material in it changes,but the process is the same.
当然，其中的材料会改变，但过程是一样的。
1035
01:16:32,796 --> 01:16:35,838
My job was to feed it.
我的工作就是，“喂养”它。
1036
01:16:35,921 --> 01:16:39,963
To say 'yes' to this. 'No' to that.'Let's try this new writer.'
对这个说“是”。对那个说“不”。“让我们试试这个新作家吧。”
1037
01:16:42,671 --> 01:16:45,546
When he took over The New Yorker,there was a great brouhaha,
当他接手《纽约客》的时候，发生了一场巨大的骚动，
1038
01:16:45,629 --> 01:16:49,713
and he ended up making The New Yorker better
than it had been in a long time,
他最终把《纽约客》做得比很久以前更好，
1039
01:16:49,796 --> 01:16:55,005
partly by relaxing some of the strictures that had become ossified,
部分原因是，他放松了一些已经僵化的限制，
1040
01:16:55,088 --> 01:16:57,546
the things you could and could not write about.
那些你能写和不能写的东西。
1041
01:16:58,422 --> 01:17:00,713
Here's this person who, on the one hand,
这个人，一方面，
1042
01:17:00,796 --> 01:17:03,463
is supposed to represent sort of high literature,
应该代表某种高级文学，
1043
01:17:03,546 --> 01:17:06,546
and yet loves pop culture in all of its manifestations,
但却热爱流行文化的所有表现形式，
1044
01:17:06,629 --> 01:17:08,422
and really does.
而且确实如此。
1045
01:17:08,897 --> 01:17:13,255
He's famously a collector of all funny kinds of things,
他以收集各种有趣的东西而闻名，
1046
01:17:13,338 --> 01:17:17,546
but I think that makes him a great editor
because he's open to everything.
但我认为，这使他成为一个伟大的编辑，因为他对一切都持开放态度。
1047
01:17:17,629 --> 01:17:19,213
He has no snobberies.
他没有势利之心。
1048
01:17:19,297 --> 01:17:22,463
Every subject is interesting,the deeper you get into it.
每一门学科都很有趣，只要你研究得越深入。
1049
01:17:23,255 --> 01:17:25,796
It doesn't have to be on a grand scale.
它不需要规模宏大。
1050
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,796
In my case,obsession can take me anywhere.
对我来说，“痴迷”可以带我去任何地方。
1051
01:17:29,380 --> 01:17:36,504
For instance, I was in some junk store somewhere in the Midwest
and I saw this object made of plastic.
比如，我在中西部的一家旧货店里，看到了这个塑料做的东西。
1052
01:17:36,588 --> 01:17:39,921
I didn't have a clue what it could be,but I liked the look of it.
我不知道那是什么，但我喜欢它的样子。
1053
01:17:40,005 --> 01:17:42,338
So I bought it, probably for $5.
所以我买了它，大概花了5美元。
1054
01:17:42,422 --> 01:17:45,963
And then, a year later,I saw a comparable object,
然后，一年后，我看到了一个类似的物体，
1055
01:17:46,046 --> 01:17:49,338
and I thought, 'Oh, I have something like that. I'll buy this one too.'
我想，‘哦，我有了一个类似的东西。我也将买下这个。”
1056
01:17:49,838 --> 01:17:54,796
And then, when I came upon a third one,
I realized that I loved these things.
然后，当我遇到第三个时，我意识到，我喜欢的这些东西，
1057
01:17:54,880 --> 01:18:00,297
By then, I had figured out that they were
women's pocketbooks made out of plastic.
到那时，我才明白，那是用塑料做的女性钱包。
1058
01:18:00,380 --> 01:18:06,921
And I thought,this is something I can accumulate
and reveal to myself and to the world.
我想，这是我可以积攒，并向自己和世界展示的东西。
1059
01:18:07,005 --> 01:18:12,630
So then, not since Captain Ahab
in search of the white whale,like Robert Caro,
那么既然，不能像亚哈船长搜寻白鲸那样，搜寻罗伯特.卡罗，
（梅尔韦尔的小说《白鲸记》里追寻白鲸的船长）
1060
01:18:12,713 --> 01:18:19,629
although perhaps in a less noble cause,
I threw myself into learning about these.
尽管缺乏崇高的理由，我还是把我自己投身到，获悉这些东西中去。
1061
01:18:19,713 --> 01:18:23,380
Part of it is completism.I like completism.
部分原因是完美主义。我喜欢完美主义。
1062
01:18:23,463 --> 01:18:26,464
Special ones that I have bought for 15 or 20 dollars,
我花了15或20美元买了一些特别的，
1063
01:18:26,546 --> 01:18:29,172
if they were in perfect condition,if they are special,
如果它们处于完美状态，如果它们很特别，
1064
01:18:29,255 --> 01:18:31,671
can sell now for $2000.
现在可以卖到2000美元。
1065
01:18:32,671 --> 01:18:37,046
But I didn't think of them as that.
I just thought of them as love objects.
但我不这么认为。我只是把它们当成爱的对象。
1066
01:18:37,130 --> 01:18:39,213
How do you feel about the handbags?
你觉得这些手袋怎么样？
1067
01:18:40,464 --> 01:18:43,088
I hate the handbags.
我讨厌手提包。
1068
01:18:44,005 --> 01:18:45,880
I found the handbags...
我发现那些手提包...
1069
01:18:47,629 --> 01:18:49,671
not uninteresting.
不是无趣的。
1070
01:18:49,754 --> 01:18:52,713
But when they became hundreds and hundreds of them...
但是当它们变成成百上千的时候...
1071
01:18:53,338 --> 01:18:57,754
And some of them actually are poisonous,as you know, they give off fumes.
其中一些实际上是有毒的，如你所知，它们会散发气味的。
1072
01:18:57,838 --> 01:19:02,005
I thought,
'I'm gonna die from the vinyl fumes and the plastic pocketbooks.'
我想，“我会被乙烯基的气味和塑料钱包呛死的。”
1073
01:19:02,754 --> 01:19:06,213
And telling a psychiatrist,'Oh, my husband is a collector.'
然后告诉心理医生，“哦，我丈夫是个收藏家。”
1074
01:19:06,297 --> 01:19:09,880
He said, 'What does he collect?' And I thought, never mind.
他说：“他收集什么？” 而我想，还是算了吧。
1075
01:19:24,388 --> 01:19:28,238
林登约翰逊图书馆，位于得克萨斯州的奥斯丁
- This is sort of nice, isn't it? - Yeah.
-这挺不错的，不是吗？ -是的。
1076
01:19:28,629 --> 01:19:33,588
To be doing it this way,coming back to the library this way.
用这种方式做事，用这种方式回归图书馆。
1077
01:19:33,671 --> 01:19:34,671
Yeah.
是的。
1078
01:19:35,297 --> 01:19:37,130
I want to say something about Ina.
我想说一些关于伊娜的事。
1079
01:19:37,213 --> 01:19:43,588
She's the only person I've ever trusted
to do any research on my books and the only person I'll ever trust.
她是我唯一信任的，能帮我研究书的人，也是我唯一信任的人。
1080
01:19:45,838 --> 01:19:49,130
- So we're going up to the Reading Room. - Good to see you, Mr. Caro.
-所以我们要去阅览室。 -很高兴见到你，卡罗先生。
1081
01:19:49,213 --> 01:19:51,629
- Nice to see you, Bob. - Thank you, sir.
-很高兴见到你，鲍勃。-谢谢，先生。
1082
01:19:53,930 --> 01:19:56,664
Everything sort of looks the same.
所有东西看起来，都一样。
1083
01:19:57,304 --> 01:19:59,788
Things don't change a whole lot.
这些东西不会有太大改变的。
1084
01:20:02,088 --> 01:20:04,588
We just walked through the Great Hall.
我们刚穿过大礼堂。
1085
01:20:04,671 --> 01:20:07,963
What did you feel the first time you saw...?
你第一次看到的时候，有什么感觉...？
1086
01:20:12,380 --> 01:20:17,504
'Intimidated' is a word, when I saw those shelves.
“惊骇”是一个词，当我看到那些架子时。
1087
01:20:17,588 --> 01:20:20,838
And then they tell you how many papers are in there,
然后他们告诉你那里有多少份文件，
1088
01:20:20,921 --> 01:20:22,755
at the time, about 32 million.
当时大约有3200万份。
1089
01:20:22,838 --> 01:20:25,255
Today, they say they have 45 million.
今天，他们说他们有4500万。
1090
01:20:28,422 --> 01:20:33,504
So you wonder how you're ever going to handle it.
所以，你想知道，你要怎么处理它。
1091
01:20:36,088 --> 01:20:39,422
And has that feeling changed when you look at those stacks today?
当你今天看到这些书堆时，这种感觉有改变吗？
1092
01:20:39,504 --> 01:20:43,963
To tell you the truth, I have a fond feeling when I look at them today,
说实话，当我今天看着它们的时候，我有一种美好的感觉，
1093
01:20:44,047 --> 01:20:46,546
because I found so much interesting stuff.
因为，我发现了很多，有趣的资料。
1094
01:20:46,629 --> 01:20:50,047
You know, once you start going through these papers,
你知道，一旦你开始浏览这些文件，
1095
01:20:50,130 --> 01:20:52,297
they're absolutely fascinating.
它们绝对是迷人的。
1096
01:20:52,380 --> 01:20:56,880
I don't think there's anything
I'd rather do than sit at one of those desks
我觉得，除了坐在这张桌子前，我什么都不想做
1097
01:20:56,963 --> 01:21:04,629
and just go through and find out stuff that's not filtered through
a press release,or some other books or something.
浏览并找出那些，没有通过新闻稿，或其它书籍，或其它什么东西，过滤的资料。
1098
01:21:05,255 --> 01:21:09,088
I just wish I had several lifetimes so I could go through all of them.
我只希望我有好几辈子，这样我就能把它们都阅览一遍了。
1099
01:21:10,022 --> 01:21:13,339
Here's a pencil for Ina, and I'll get your cart.
这是给伊娜的铅笔，我去推你的车。
1100
01:21:13,422 --> 01:21:16,005
- If you want to go ahead and sit down. - Which desk am I at?
-如果你想坐下来的话。 -我在哪张桌子坐下？
1101
01:21:16,088 --> 01:21:17,339
- This one. - Okay.
-这张。 -好的。
1102
01:21:17,422 --> 01:21:18,713
Go ahead and sit down.
请坐吧。
1103
01:21:18,796 --> 01:21:21,339
Sometimes you're going through these letters and you say:
有时你在浏览这些信件时，你会说：
1104
01:21:21,422 --> 01:21:26,880
'I'm gonna look at a manageable number of boxes
on some particular point,eight or nine boxes.'
“我要看一些可便于管理的盒子是的编号，在某个特定的点上，有8或9个盒子。”
1105
01:21:26,963 --> 01:21:30,755
So it's gonna take you a month,or a couple of months.
这需要一个月，或者几个月的时间。
1106
01:21:30,838 --> 01:21:35,213
But you're going through one innocuous piece of paper after another,
但你却一页一页地浏览着这些无关痛痒的文件，
1107
01:21:35,921 --> 01:21:38,130
just thinking, am I wasting these weeks?
心里想着，我是不是在浪费这些时间？
1108
01:21:38,213 --> 01:21:43,921
And then all of a sudden, there it is,
the information that you were looking for.
然后突然之间，你要找的信息，就在那里了。
1109
01:21:44,005 --> 01:21:49,047
And it's there in writing.You see what actually happened.
而且是书面的。你看到了，实际发生了什么。
1110
01:21:49,796 --> 01:21:53,838
So you feel,'Oh, I am in history now. I'm really...
所以你会觉得，‘哦，我现在走进历史上了。我真的...
1111
01:21:53,922 --> 01:21:57,588
This is it. This is day by...Minute by minute.'
就在样，一天接一天...一分钟接一分钟地过去。”
1112
01:22:00,297 --> 01:22:08,630
Today, I came across a telegram that I originally read,
I suppose, decades ago, but passed over.
今天，我看到了一封电报，我想，我是在几十年前读过的，但忽略掉了。
1113
01:22:08,713 --> 01:22:12,546
I didn't know it had a significance. It has a great significance.
我不知道这有什么意义。它具有重要的意义。
1114
01:22:15,546 --> 01:22:18,047
Are you still surprised by things you find?
你还会对你发现的东西，感到惊讶吗？
1115
01:22:19,039 --> 01:22:26,088
Nothing that he does, with getting these bills passed, shocks me anymore
他(LBJ)所做的一切，让这些法案通过，再也不会让我感到震惊了，
1116
01:22:26,172 --> 01:22:28,880
because I've seen him do the most shocking things.
因为我见过，他(LBJ)做过最令人震惊的事情。
1117
01:22:28,963 --> 01:22:33,172
Sometimes you say, 'Oh, that's amazing.Look what he's doing here.
有时候你会说，‘哦，太棒了。看看他在做什么。
1118
01:22:33,255 --> 01:22:38,922
I don't know... I never knew you could do something like this.
I never heard of anyone doing something like this.'
我不知道...我从来不知道，你能做这种事。我从没听说过，有人会做这样的事。”
1119
01:22:39,005 --> 01:22:42,222
So the answer is,you're always fascinated.
所以，答案是，你总是很入迷。
1120
01:22:43,830 --> 01:22:46,088
When we come here in the morning,
当我们早上来这里的时候，
1121
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,422
Ina and I say, you know...You can't wait to get in there.
我和伊娜说，你知道...你迫不及待地想进去。
1122
01:22:50,504 --> 01:22:55,713
I mean, sometimes they tell you at 4:45,
you have to close your boxes and bring them up,
我是说，有时候他们会在4点45分告诉你，你必须合上你的盒子，把它们上交，
1123
01:22:55,796 --> 01:23:01,255
and you can't bear to leave them,
and you can't wait to get in here the next morning.
你不能忍受离开它们，你迫不及待地想第二天早上回到这里来。
1124
01:23:01,339 --> 01:23:06,546
So I've been doing this 42 years,
I still love getting in here in the morning.
我已经做了42年了，我仍然喜欢早上来这里。
1125
01:23:06,630 --> 01:23:09,464
I mean, the writing is very hard.
我是说，写作很难。
1126
01:23:10,172 --> 01:23:16,464
There's no kidding around about it.Writing, for me, anyway, is hard.
这可不是开玩笑的。无论如何，写作对我来说是件难事。
1127
01:23:17,496 --> 01:23:21,963
Research is just great, I have to say.
我不得不说，研究真是太棒了。
1128
01:23:26,630 --> 01:23:30,588
'One of the greatest issues
invoked by the life of Lyndon Baines Johnson:
“林登·贝恩斯·约翰逊的一生引发的最大问题之一是：
1129
01:23:30,671 --> 01:23:34,922
The relationship between means and ends.
手段与目的之间的关系。
1130
01:23:35,005 --> 01:23:38,255
Many of the ends of Lyndon Johnson's life,
林登·约翰逊一生的许多目标，
1131
01:23:38,339 --> 01:23:41,464
civil rights in particular, perhaps,but others, too,
也许尤其是民权，但也有一些目标，
1132
01:23:41,546 --> 01:23:45,630
were noble, heroic advances in the cause of social justice.
是在社会正义事业中崇高而英勇的进步。
1133
01:23:45,713 --> 01:23:51,005
Many liberal dreams might not be reality,
even today, were it not for Lyndon Johnson.
如果没有林登.约翰逊，即使在今天，许多自由主义的梦想，也可能不会实现。
1134
01:23:51,088 --> 01:23:54,546
Those noble ends, however,would not have been possible
然而，这些崇高的目标是不可能实现的，
1135
01:23:54,630 --> 01:24:00,380
were it not for the means far from noble
which brought Lyndon Johnson to power.'
如果不是因为林登·约翰逊掌权的手段，远非崇高。”
1136
01:24:01,246 --> 01:24:05,880
Bob is so accurate and so fact-oriented...
鲍勃是如此准确，如此以事实为导向...
1137
01:24:06,713 --> 01:24:09,963
is also, in my view, a hidden romantic.
在我看来，这也是一种“隐藏的浪漫”。
1138
01:24:11,130 --> 01:24:13,546
See, what I see is, he started out...
我看到的是，他一开始...
1139
01:24:13,630 --> 01:24:18,214
He knew that he deeply admired what Johnson had accomplished,
他知道，他非常钦佩约翰逊的成就，
1140
01:24:18,297 --> 01:24:22,546
particularly in the area of civil rights and helping the poor.
特别是在民权和帮助穷人方面。
1141
01:24:22,630 --> 01:24:24,505
I think he saw Johnson,
我想，他把约翰逊，
1142
01:24:24,730 --> 01:24:28,630
for all the bad he knew about him,as a potential hero.
看成了一个潜在的英雄，尽管他知道约翰逊有很多不好的地方。
1143
01:24:29,214 --> 01:24:33,588
And I think it was very disillusioning for him to discover these things.
我认为，他发现这些事情的时候，充满了幻想破灭感。
1144
01:24:33,671 --> 01:24:38,339
This was not a journalist with an agenda to get his subject.
这不是一个，对他的采访对象，怀揣着秘密目标的记者。
1145
01:24:39,380 --> 01:24:45,047
If anything,
I think his agenda would have been to celebrate what he accomplished.
如果有的话，我认为他的秘密目标，应该是庆祝他（采访对象）所取得的成就。
1146
01:24:45,130 --> 01:24:50,464
And I think he was horrified,as we all have been, by his revelations.
我想他和我们一样，对他的揭露，感到震惊。
1147
01:24:50,546 --> 01:24:57,546
And then, as with all idealists and romantics,
you know, he was the more dismayed.
然后，就像所有理想主义者和浪漫主义者一样，他更加沮丧了。
1148
01:24:57,630 --> 01:25:00,546
And I think that explains a lot about Bob and the...
我想这解释了很多，关于鲍勃和...
1149
01:25:01,130 --> 01:25:03,464
And the emotion behind his writing.
以及他的写作背后的情感。
1150
01:25:03,664 --> 01:25:05,664
（林登约翰逊竞选美国参议员）
1151
01:25:05,772 --> 01:25:13,713
Can you tell me,
what was the most daunting moment of research for you?
你能告诉我，对你来说，研究中最令人畏惧的时刻，是什么吗？
1152
01:25:14,464 --> 01:25:16,546
The single most daunting thing?
最令人畏惧的事情是什么？
1153
01:25:16,630 --> 01:25:21,755
You know, Lyndon Johnson won his election to the Senate by 87 votes,
你们知道，林登·约翰逊以87票的优势，赢得了参议员选举，
1154
01:25:21,838 --> 01:25:24,922
that were basically cast the week after the election.
这基本上是在选举后一周投票的结果。
1155
01:25:26,381 --> 01:25:29,130
So when I got up to this portion,
所以当我读到这部分的时候，
1156
01:25:29,214 --> 01:25:34,797
every other biographer basically
had either said that he didn't steal them,
其他的传记作家，基本上要么说，他没有“窃取选票”，
1157
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:38,797
or was just in the same order as everything that happens in Texas.
要么说，计票顺序和得克萨斯发生的事情，是一样的。
1158
01:25:39,422 --> 01:25:46,297
Or more often what was said is,
no one will ever know whether he really stole the election.
或者更常见的说法是，没有人会知道，他是否真的“窃取了选举”。
1159
01:25:46,381 --> 01:25:49,630
I must have read that sentence a dozen times in books.
这句话，我在各种书上，读过十几遍了。
1160
01:25:50,339 --> 01:25:54,546
And I got up to it and I said:'I'm never gonna write a book...
我站起来对自己说：‘我永远不会写这样一本书...
1161
01:25:55,838 --> 01:25:59,297
and say no one will ever know if he stole it or not,
并说，没人会知道，他是不是“窃取选票”的，
1162
01:25:59,381 --> 01:26:01,922
if, in fact, you could...
如果，事实上，你可以...
1163
01:26:02,005 --> 01:26:05,755
It is possible to arrive at a conclusion...
得出结论，是可能的...
1164
01:26:06,381 --> 01:26:08,546
as to whether he stole it or not.'
到底，他是不是“窃取选票”的。”
1165
01:26:09,546 --> 01:26:13,005
And when I realized what that was going to entail...
当我意识到，这需要进行责任承担的时候...
1166
01:26:14,188 --> 01:26:16,838
It was another thing where you say, 'Oh, boy...
这是另一件事，你会说，‘哦，天哪...
1167
01:26:19,172 --> 01:26:22,297
this is gonna take months and months
这将花费数月的时间
1168
01:26:23,047 --> 01:26:27,713
to find the people involved, to try to get them to talk.'
来找到相关人员，并试图让他们开口。”
1169
01:26:27,797 --> 01:26:33,089
When you realize that,you have this sinking feeling, you know.
当你意识到这一点时，你会有一种下沉的感觉。
1170
01:26:33,172 --> 01:26:36,672
'Oh, boy, I thought I was gonna be done with this book in four years.
“哦，天哪，我原来以为，我能在四年内完成这本书。
1171
01:26:36,755 --> 01:26:39,172
We're really talking now about five years.'
我们现在谈的是，五年的时间。”
1172
01:26:39,255 --> 01:26:40,963
But then I thought:
但我后来想：
1173
01:26:41,047 --> 01:26:46,713
'But I'm trying to explain
how American politics worked in the 20th century.'
“但我是在试图解释，20世纪美国政治是如何运作的。”
1174
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:52,922
Stolen elections are a big part of American politics.
选举舞弊，是美国政治的重要组成部分。
1175
01:26:53,005 --> 01:26:56,964
They're just a part that's never been really examined...
它们只是一个，从未被真正研究过的部分...
1176
01:26:58,214 --> 01:27:01,172
in the depth that I think it should be examined.
我认为应该深入研究一下。
1177
01:27:01,255 --> 01:27:07,672
I said, 'I'll really be adding something
to our understanding of how democracy works,
我说，“我真的会为我们对民主如何运作的理解增添一些东西，
1178
01:27:07,755 --> 01:27:11,797
how politics works,
how government works in America in the 20th century,
政治是如何运作的，20世纪美国政府是如何运作的，
1179
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:15,755
if I show people what a stolen election is.
如果我让人们知道，什么是非法选举。
1180
01:27:15,838 --> 01:27:18,255
Let's see what it really is.'
让我们看看它到底是什么。”
1181
01:27:18,339 --> 01:27:22,464
Here's a man who was like 30,000 votes behind on Election Day.
这是一个在选举日，落后3万票的人。
1182
01:27:22,546 --> 01:27:25,922
Where did those 30,000 votes come from?
那3万张选票是从哪里来的？
1183
01:27:28,546 --> 01:27:35,505
You drove down to this area of Texas,
the valley,which was like another country then.
你开车到德克萨斯州的这个地区，这个山谷，那时候就像另一个国家。
1184
01:27:35,588 --> 01:27:38,256
You said, this is where these votes came from.
你说，这些选票就是从这里来的。
1185
01:27:39,422 --> 01:27:44,047
And you read the court testimony,
and there's a man named Luis Salas,who said...
你读了法庭证词，有一个叫路易斯·萨拉斯的人说...
1186
01:27:44,130 --> 01:27:48,672
He was on the witness stand and he was being questioned.
他站在证人席上，接受审讯。
1187
01:27:48,755 --> 01:27:51,172
They were about to open Box 13,
他们准备打开第13选区投票箱，
1188
01:27:51,256 --> 01:27:57,047
which was this box they found in the desert
a week later with the votes in alphabetical order.
也就是他们一周后，在沙漠中“发现”的盒子，里面是按字母顺序排列的选票。
1189
01:27:57,355 --> 01:27:59,838
'Found' was in quotation marks.
“发现”是打了引号的。
1190
01:27:59,922 --> 01:28:02,546
And he was on the stand,
他站在证人席上，
1191
01:28:02,630 --> 01:28:05,922
and they were about to open the box,and he was about to testify,
他们正要打开盒子，他正要作证，
1192
01:28:06,005 --> 01:28:11,755
when a messenger rushed into the courtroom with a message saying
这时一个信使冲进法庭，带来消息说
1193
01:28:11,838 --> 01:28:16,464
that the United States Supreme Court,
Hugo Black,had ordered the trial stop.
美国最高法院，雨果·布莱克，下令停止审判。
1194
01:28:16,964 --> 01:28:20,755
So I was looking for politicians who had been involved in it,
所以我在寻找参与其中的政治家，
1195
01:28:20,838 --> 01:28:23,256
and everyone said, 'Oh, Luis Salas.
每个人都说，‘哦，路易斯·萨拉斯。
1196
01:28:24,130 --> 01:28:28,797
Luis Salas. Oh, Luis Salas, he's dead.Luis Salas, he's dead.'
路易斯·萨拉斯。路易斯·萨拉斯，他死了。路易斯·萨拉斯，他死了。”
1197
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:34,422
And all of a sudden, one woman said to me,'Luis Salas isn't dead.
突然间，一个女人对我说，“路易斯·萨拉斯没有死。
1198
01:28:34,505 --> 01:28:37,130
You know, he had to...He was involved in another...'
你知道，他必须...他卷入了另一起...”
1199
01:28:37,214 --> 01:28:40,464
It was a murder investigation, and...
那是一起谋杀案调查，而且...
1200
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,505
'He went back to Mexico, but he's alive.'
“他回到了墨西哥，但他还活着。”
1201
01:28:45,588 --> 01:28:46,922
It was really hard.
这真的很难。
1202
01:28:47,005 --> 01:28:51,880
And I finally found, and it's a 'finally, '
'cause it was a lot of work,
我终于发现，这用了一个“终于”，因为这里有太多的工作，
1203
01:28:51,964 --> 01:28:55,005
that he was, in fact,back in Texas, he was in Houston,
事实上，他回到德克萨斯州，他在休斯顿，
1204
01:28:55,089 --> 01:28:56,630
and he was living in a trailer.
他住在一辆拖车里。
1205
01:28:57,297 --> 01:29:02,797
So I didn't want to give him a chance to say, no, he wouldn't talk to me.
所以，我不想给他机会说，不行，他不肯跟我说话。
1206
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,839
So I just flew to Houston and went to this trailer and knocked...
所以，我就飞到休斯顿，来到这个拖车前，敲了门...
1207
01:29:06,922 --> 01:29:13,256
Now, Luis Salas was the enforcer
for this boss of the counties along the border.
现在，路易斯·萨拉斯是边境沿线各县的某位老大的手下打手。
1208
01:29:14,005 --> 01:29:16,964
He was a huge, burly guy.
他曾是个大块头的莽汉。
1209
01:29:17,047 --> 01:29:19,422
So I knock on the door,and the door is opened,
于是我敲了敲门，门开了，
1210
01:29:19,505 --> 01:29:22,630
and I'm sort of expecting this guy in my book,
我有点期待我书里的这个人，
1211
01:29:22,713 --> 01:29:26,880
and this wizened, very frail,
这个干瘪的，非常虚弱的，
1212
01:29:27,381 --> 01:29:31,339
very old little man opens the door.
非常老的小男人，开了门。
1213
01:29:31,922 --> 01:29:36,297
And I said to him,'Mr. Salas, my name is Bob Caro
我对他说：“萨拉斯先生，我叫鲍勃·卡罗，
1214
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:39,131
and I'm writing a book about Lyndon Johnson.'
我正在写一本，关于林登·约翰逊的书。”
1215
01:29:39,214 --> 01:29:43,464
And without me saying anything else,
while we were still in the doorway,he said:
我们还在门口时，我啥都没说，他就说：
1216
01:29:44,381 --> 01:29:47,381
'Then you want to know about Box 13.'
“那么你想知道，13号选区投票箱的事了。”
1217
01:29:47,814 --> 01:29:53,630
And he said,'You know, I have written it all down.'
他说，“你知道吗，我都写下来了。”
1218
01:29:54,497 --> 01:30:00,256
And he brought out a manuscript,the title of which is Box 13,
他拿出一份手稿，题目是：13号选区投票箱，
1219
01:30:00,339 --> 01:30:04,713
which told the whole story of it,what he had done.
里面讲述了整个故事，他所做的一切。
1220
01:30:05,372 --> 01:30:08,464
So I said, 'Can I copy this?'
所以我说，“我可以复印这个吗？”
1221
01:30:08,547 --> 01:30:11,588
And he said,'There's a Xerox machine in the 7-Eleven.'
他说：“7- 11便利店里有一台施乐复印机。”
1222
01:30:12,039 --> 01:30:17,505
So you see, this is a document that really no one had ever seen before.
所以你看，这是一份以前没人见过的文件。
1223
01:30:17,588 --> 01:30:22,880
And once you read it and
you tied it in with the testimony that had been given under oath,
一旦你读了它，并把它与宣誓后的证词联系起来，
1224
01:30:22,964 --> 01:30:26,172
there was no question about what had happened in this election,
毫无疑问，这次选举中发生了什么，
1225
01:30:26,256 --> 01:30:30,339
that it was stolen,and precisely how it was stolen.
它是被窃取的，以及它是如何被窃取的。
1226
01:30:35,139 --> 01:30:37,639
罗伯特.卡罗的《林登约翰逊年代》之第二卷
《直上青云的手段》，出版于1990年，
1227
01:30:37,755 --> 01:30:40,964
That book was an absolute revelation.
那本书，是绝对的披露。
1228
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:46,630
That's the fabulous aspect of that book. Who knew?
这就是这本书的绝妙之处。谁知道呢?
1229
01:30:55,922 --> 01:30:58,839
I wanted to say hello and thank you,and to shake your hand.
我想跟你打个招呼，感谢你，跟你握握手。
1230
01:30:58,922 --> 01:31:00,547
- Okay. - 'Cause it was wonderful.
-好的。 -因为写得太棒了。
1231
01:31:00,630 --> 01:31:02,797
You made my day. That's great.
你让我很开心。太好了。
1232
01:31:03,505 --> 01:31:05,714
- I hope you like it. - I'm sure I'll love it.
-希望你喜欢。 -我肯定会喜欢的。
1233
01:31:05,797 --> 01:31:06,630
Hi, Mr. Caro.
嗨，卡罗先生。
1234
01:31:06,714 --> 01:31:10,922
When I'm writing a book,on some very deep level,
当我在写一本书的时候，在某种非常深刻的层面上，
1235
01:31:11,005 --> 01:31:16,297
Bob Gottlieb and I are thinking about the same book.
鲍勃·戈特利布和我在思考同一本书。
1236
01:31:16,381 --> 01:31:21,256
So that if I say to him during the course of the seven years,
所以如果我在七年的时间里，对他说，
1237
01:31:21,339 --> 01:31:24,547
which is what all of my books take, at least...
至少我所有的书，都需要七年的时间...
1238
01:31:25,714 --> 01:31:30,755
If I say to him, 'I'm gonna do
a whole book on the stolen election, Bob,
如果我对他说，“鲍勃，我要写一本关于选举舞弊的书，
1239
01:31:30,839 --> 01:31:34,256
that was just supposed to be one chapter when we thought about it'...
当我们想到这件事的时候，这应该是一章”...
1240
01:31:37,039 --> 01:31:42,588
he seldom even asks me why.He just sort of agrees.
他甚至很少问我，为什么。他只是表示了同意。
1241
01:31:42,672 --> 01:31:46,505
It's a priceless thing for a writer to have something like that.
对于一个作家来说，拥有这样的默契，是无价的。
1242
01:31:48,547 --> 01:31:53,964
Then, of course,three volumes became four volumes,
and four volumes is becoming five volumes.
然后，当然，三卷变成了四卷，四卷变成了五卷。
1243
01:31:54,047 --> 01:31:59,172
And that's the end of it 'cause neither
of us is gonna be around beyond that,if we get to that.
这就是结局，因为如果我们走到那一步，我俩都“活不久矣”。
1244
01:32:00,089 --> 01:32:04,381
What do you think it means to write a book over the course of 50 years?
你认为，用50年的时间写一本书，意味着什么？
1245
01:32:05,297 --> 01:32:07,505
Well, it isn't a book. It's five books.
好吧，它不是一本书。是五本书。
1246
01:32:07,588 --> 01:32:09,797
The subject is always Lyndon B. Johnson.
主题总是，林登B·约翰逊。
1247
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:13,297
（2002年的第三卷《参议院里的主人》）
But the subject of each book is different.
但每本书的主题，都是不同的。
1248
01:32:13,381 --> 01:32:20,256
The Master of the Senate is not just about
the extraordinary account of how Johnson ruled it with an iron rod
《参议院的主人》不仅仅是关于约翰逊，如何用铁棒统治参议院，的非凡描述，
1249
01:32:20,339 --> 01:32:24,464
and got things done
that no one else could ever have done and has been able to do since.
完成了别人做不到的事情，而且从那以后一直都能做到。
1250
01:32:24,547 --> 01:32:28,298
By hook, by crook.It was probably more crook than hook.
不择手段。这可能是“弊大于利”的。
1251
01:32:29,505 --> 01:32:35,922
It's also the story of
how the Senate did work,does work, and can or cannot work.
这也是参议院如何运作，发挥效果，以及能或不能运作的故事。
1252
01:32:36,006 --> 01:32:41,298
So we came to understand,really, how the government works.
所以，我们开始真正理解，政府是如何运作的。
1253
01:32:41,381 --> 01:32:47,588
So it's completely fascinating
as a demonstration of America,as well as a personal story.
因此，作为美国的一个示范，以及一个个人的故事，这是非常迷人的。
1254
01:32:47,672 --> 01:32:49,298
And that's true of each of his books.
他的每一本书都是如此。
1255
01:32:49,381 --> 01:32:55,839
2012年四卷《权力通道》
As with the last volume to have been published,
about the assassination and his becoming president.
就像即将出版的最后一卷一样，这卷是关于暗杀和他成为总统的。
1256
01:32:55,922 --> 01:32:59,922
But it's also about how the transition of power takes place in America.
但它也讲述了美国权力的过渡，是如何发生的。
1257
01:33:00,006 --> 01:33:02,089
How does that work? And you see it.
这是怎么做到的呢？你看到了。
1258
01:33:08,664 --> 01:33:11,880
So you see this,the outline for this book...
你看这个，这本书的大纲...
1259
01:33:13,597 --> 01:33:15,339
was this.
就是这样的。
1260
01:33:15,423 --> 01:33:21,006
第五卷的大纲
You can see slightly that there was a line of pages up above it.
你可以稍微看到，上面有一行纸。
1261
01:33:21,089 --> 01:33:24,047
There were three rows,but I finished this.
本来有三排，但我做完了。
1262
01:33:24,131 --> 01:33:27,755
So I guess you could say I'm a third,that's about where I am.
所以，我猜你可以说，我是第三个，这就是我的位置。
1263
01:33:29,339 --> 01:33:30,630
I took it down...
我把它拿下来了...
1264
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:35,121
- You don't need to know the reason. - I do want to know.
-你不需要知道原因。 -我确实想知道。
1265
01:33:35,172 --> 01:33:36,172
Well, you...
好吧，那你...
1266
01:33:37,839 --> 01:33:40,006
Anyway, that's the part that's done.
不管怎样，这部分已经完成了
1267
01:33:47,256 --> 01:33:48,256
So confession.
坦率地讲。
1268
01:33:48,339 --> 01:33:51,672
丽莎.卢卡斯，万神殿出版社出版人
I haven't finished the last one because I don't want there to be a world
我还没有读完最后一本，因为我不想在这个世界上
1269
01:33:51,755 --> 01:33:54,006
where I don't have a little more Bob Caro to read.
我没有更多的鲍勃·卡罗的作品可读。
1270
01:33:56,922 --> 01:33:59,630
尼尔.莫里斯，卡罗的粉丝
I want Volume 5.
我想读第五卷。
1271
01:33:59,714 --> 01:34:02,630
I want it. I need it.Please. Get back to work.
我想要。我需要它。回去接着写吧。
1272
01:34:03,339 --> 01:34:06,131
柯南.奥布莱恩
I'm so happy he's working on this next book.
我很高兴，他在写下一本书。
1273
01:34:06,214 --> 01:34:09,464
And when he's done,I'll be there first in line
等他做完了，我会排在第一个，
1274
01:34:10,089 --> 01:34:11,630
'cause I will be first in line.
因为我愿意排在第一个。
1275
01:34:12,672 --> 01:34:16,339
亨特C.史密斯，卡罗的粉丝
What's important is that Robert Caro finish the work...
重要的是让罗伯特·卡罗完成这项工作...
1276
01:34:16,423 --> 01:34:20,672
Finish his life's work,while we still have him.
趁他还活着，完成他毕生的事业。
1277
01:34:24,023 --> 01:34:27,423
Sir, I've been a fan of yours since The Power Broker,
先生，从《权力掮客》开始我就是你的粉丝了，
1278
01:34:27,505 --> 01:34:29,173
and I've read all the Johnson books,
我读了写约翰逊的所有书，
1279
01:34:29,256 --> 01:34:32,964
and I'm very anxious to know when you think you'll finish...
我很想知道，你什么时候能写完...
1280
01:34:34,089 --> 01:34:35,547
the next volume.
下一卷书。
1281
01:34:35,630 --> 01:34:38,922
And I hope that there's ten more volumes after that one.
我希望在那之后，还有十卷。
1282
01:34:39,922 --> 01:34:42,173
You're the second person to ask me that today.
你是今天第二个，问我这个问题的人了。
1283
01:34:42,256 --> 01:34:44,089
The first one was my publisher.
第一个是我的出版商。
1284
01:34:46,839 --> 01:34:50,339
I try to blank out the number of years each of the books takes.
我试着把每本书的年数划掉。
1285
01:34:50,423 --> 01:34:53,464
It's not to my advantage to think about that.
想这些，对我没什么好处。
1286
01:34:54,755 --> 01:34:59,797
Caro is working as hard as he can work,and he's working flat-out.
卡罗正在尽他所能地努力工作，他正在全力以赴地工作。
1287
01:34:59,881 --> 01:35:01,464
No sense in giving him...
没必要给他...
1288
01:35:01,547 --> 01:35:04,881
We would never give him any more pressure than he already has.
我们不会再给他施加压力了。
1289
01:35:04,964 --> 01:35:06,797
I remember very vividly
我还清楚地记得，
1290
01:35:08,131 --> 01:35:13,298
an editor coming down the hall and asking me,
while I was doing one of the early Johnson books:
当时我正在写约翰逊早期的一本书，一位编辑走过来问我：
1291
01:35:13,381 --> 01:35:15,714
'When are you gonna deliver?' You know?
“你什么时候能发表？”你知道吗？
1292
01:35:15,797 --> 01:35:20,214
And I remember Bob saying,'Don't ever ask him that.' You know?
我记得鲍勃说，“永远不要问他这个问题。”你知道吗？
1293
01:35:20,298 --> 01:35:24,256
That's a sentence that meant a lot to me.
这句话对我意义重大。
1294
01:35:25,606 --> 01:35:29,131
You know, with Bob,while he's writing a book,
你知道，和鲍勃在一起，当他在写书的时候，
1295
01:35:29,214 --> 01:35:31,672
and I'm not merely waiting for it,
我不仅仅是在期待，
1296
01:35:31,755 --> 01:35:35,630
but busy about my own life and about other things that I'm working on,
而是忙于我自己的生活，和我正在做的其它事情，
1297
01:35:35,714 --> 01:35:40,381
still, he's always there in the back of my mind, because there he is.
但他总是在我的脑海里，因为他就在那里。
1298
01:35:40,465 --> 01:35:41,547
And there it is.
就是这样。
1299
01:35:41,630 --> 01:35:45,173
And I'm as eager to read the fifth volume as everybody else is.
我和其他人一样，也渴望读到第五卷。
1300
01:35:45,256 --> 01:35:50,797
You know, by now I have an almost
lifelong curiosity about Lyndon Johnson,
你知道，到现在为止，我对林登·约翰逊几乎有一辈子的好奇心，
1301
01:35:51,423 --> 01:35:54,339
and what happened to him and to us because of him.
以及因为他，而发生在他和我们身上的事情。
1302
01:35:54,423 --> 01:36:00,630
So I'm waiting eagerly too,
but waiting eagerly is not a very proactive line of work.
所以我也在急切地等待，但急切地等待，并不是一种积极主动的工作。
1303
01:36:04,689 --> 01:36:07,756
And how are you spending your time these days?
这些日子里，你是怎么打发时间的？
1304
01:36:08,672 --> 01:36:11,964
I'm editing. I'm now working on a book by Bill Gates.
我还在编辑。我现在正在编辑一本，比尔·盖茨写的书。
1305
01:36:12,047 --> 01:36:15,047
His first book in 20-odd years,about the environment.
他20多年来的第一本书，是关于环境的。
1306
01:36:15,839 --> 01:36:17,964
I read, read, read, read, read.
我读，读，读，读，读。
1307
01:36:18,505 --> 01:36:23,089
A lot of my reading has to do with
what I'm writing,and that is what I've been doing a lot of.
我的很多阅读，都和我写的东西有关，这也是我一直在做的事情。
1308
01:36:27,814 --> 01:36:29,547
You know, I don't like writing.
你知道，我不喜欢写作。
1309
01:36:29,630 --> 01:36:33,505
I've always disliked it and resisted it and never thought I would do it.
我一直不喜欢写作，抗拒写作，从来没有想过，我也会这样做了。
1310
01:36:34,214 --> 01:36:41,672
And yet, I have turned out endless pieces
for the New York Review of Books and The New Yorker,
然而，我为《纽约书评》和《纽约客》写了无数篇文章。而《纽约客》
1311
01:36:41,756 --> 01:36:45,881
a dance column for 20 years for The New York Observer.
为《纽约观察家》开设了，长达20年的舞蹈专栏。
1312
01:36:45,964 --> 01:36:49,547
Long pieces for The New York Times Book Review.
为《纽约时报书评》写的长篇文章。
1313
01:36:50,839 --> 01:36:53,006
And you help run the Miami City Ballet.
你还帮忙经营“迈阿密城市芭蕾舞团”。
1314
01:36:53,839 --> 01:36:56,714
Yes. My whole life, I've been a word person.
是。我这辈子，都是一个爱说话的人。
1315
01:36:56,797 --> 01:36:58,256
Everything for me is words.
对我来说，一切都是文字。
1316
01:37:00,173 --> 01:37:06,339
And dance liberated my feelings from the bondage of the tyranny of words.
舞蹈把我的感情，从文字的束缚中，解放出来。
1317
01:37:08,589 --> 01:37:13,089
I've been involved with Miami City Ballet for 19 or 20 years.
我加入迈阿密城市芭蕾舞团，已经有19、20年了。
1318
01:37:14,423 --> 01:37:16,881
I do everything I can to be helpful.
我尽我所能去帮忙。
1319
01:37:16,964 --> 01:37:19,714
迈阿密城市芭蕾舞团的艺术指导
Working on programing with Lourdes Lopez.
和卢尔德丝·洛佩兹一起编舞。
1320
01:37:21,756 --> 01:37:23,714
It's a very emotional business.
这是一个非常情绪化的行业。
1321
01:37:23,797 --> 01:37:26,839
You are putting out fires all the time.
你一直在救火。
1322
01:37:26,922 --> 01:37:29,006
Now, publishing is a lot like that.
现在，出版业和这很像。
1323
01:37:30,630 --> 01:37:34,589
So it was a natural dynamic for me.
所以，这对我来说，是一种自然的动力。
1324
01:37:35,340 --> 01:37:36,881
And, of course, I love doing it.
当然，我喜欢这样做。
1325
01:37:37,881 --> 01:37:39,756
Because making things better...
因为让事情变得更好...
1326
01:37:40,940 --> 01:37:44,006
saving things, is the editorial impulse.
要保留一些东西，这是作编辑的冲动。
1327
01:37:59,797 --> 01:38:04,839
I'm now writing a book,
and he bailed on me,on my life after the White House.
我现在正在写一本书，他却抛弃了我，在我离开白宫后的生活里。
1328
01:38:04,922 --> 01:38:08,381
He called me, he said,
'I'm 89 years old. I just... I can't do this anymore.
他打电话给我说，“我89岁了。我只是...我不能再这样下去了。
1329
01:38:08,465 --> 01:38:10,964
You're not gonna write the book I think you ought to write.'
你不会去写，我觉得你该写的书。”
1330
01:38:11,048 --> 01:38:14,298
And it's the first thing I've ever done without him.
这是我第一次，没有他的“陪伴”。
1331
01:38:14,731 --> 01:38:17,006
I feel like a little lost boy.
我觉得，自己像个迷路的小男孩。
1332
01:38:26,797 --> 01:38:31,672
- Oh,gosh.Can I hug you? - Sure.It's nice. -So good to see you.
-哦，天哪。我能抱抱你吗？ -当然。这很好。 -见到你太高兴了。
1333
01:38:31,756 --> 01:38:35,256
Will you show me the spot over the refrigerator where you put the...?
你能指给我看，你那放在冰箱位置上面是...？
1334
01:38:35,340 --> 01:38:37,505
When we were in your office, you said...
我们在你办公室的时候，你说...
1335
01:38:37,589 --> 01:38:39,756
- Yes. Every night... - Yes.
-是的。每天晚上... -是的。
1336
01:38:40,381 --> 01:38:42,547
Whatever I've typed that day...
不管我那天，打字了些什么...
1337
01:38:45,173 --> 01:38:47,881
So you can stand... They're back here.
所以，你可以站这儿...它们回来了。
1338
01:38:47,964 --> 01:38:52,089
I just shove it in there.
我把它塞了进去。
1339
01:38:52,173 --> 01:38:55,173
It goes back about six feet, actually.
实际上，它向后延伸了六英尺。
1340
01:38:55,256 --> 01:39:01,631
And it's all filled with the carbons of everything
I've written since we moved to this apartment.
里面全是，我们搬来这公寓后，我写的所有东西的复写纸。
1341
01:39:01,714 --> 01:39:05,214
- Everything you've written? - Yes, there's a carbon up there.
-你写的所有东西？ -是的，上面衬有一张复写纸。
1342
01:39:05,298 --> 01:39:07,256
And how do you fit it all in?
你是怎么把这些，都安排进去的？
1343
01:39:07,340 --> 01:39:14,048
Well, as you can see,
that's shortly gonna become a real, real problem.
正如你所看到的，这很快就会成为一个真正的问题。
1344
01:39:14,131 --> 01:39:21,964
But right now, every so often,I get up on a ladder and push,
and there's always some room behind.
但现在，每隔一段时间，我爬上梯子，往里推一推，后面总是有一些空间。
1345
01:39:22,048 --> 01:39:27,215
But if I'm writing,like that's three or four pages a day.
但如果我在写作，一天要写三四页。
1346
01:39:27,298 --> 01:39:28,923
Each little thing there.
每次都是一些小东西。
1347
01:39:30,215 --> 01:39:33,423
- That's it. - That's incredible. That's incredible.
-就是这样。 -太不可思议了。这是难以置信的。
1348
01:39:36,589 --> 01:39:43,340
Does researching power like this
make you more or less hopeful for our country?
像这样的研究能力，让你对我们的国家，更有希望了吗？
1349
01:39:46,797 --> 01:39:47,839
Good question.
这是个好问题。
1350
01:39:48,505 --> 01:39:52,048
Well, definitely more hopeful
当然，更有希望了，
1351
01:39:52,131 --> 01:39:55,756
because you see it can be done.
因为你看到，这是可以做到的。
1352
01:39:57,923 --> 01:40:00,006
Right now I'm working on a section:
现在我正在写一个章节：
1353
01:40:00,089 --> 01:40:07,340
'What was it like to be old and sick in America
before Medicare and Medicaid?'
“在医疗保险和医疗补助之前的美国，老年人和病人是什么样的？”
1354
01:40:07,423 --> 01:40:10,631
And you have to put yourself into that,and you say,
你必须把自己投入其中，你会说，
1355
01:40:10,714 --> 01:40:16,089
what was it like to be getting old
and know you're gonna be sick and not have any money?
当变老了，知道自己会生病，没有钱，是什么感觉？
1356
01:40:17,714 --> 01:40:22,423
Suddenly, there comes across a political genius.
There's no other word for it.
突然，一位政治天才出现了。没有别的词可以形容了。
1357
01:40:22,506 --> 01:40:25,672
A man who can take this legislation and pass it,
一个能够通过这项立法，
1358
01:40:25,756 --> 01:40:29,173
and change and transform people's lives for the better.
让人们的生活变得更好的人。
1359
01:40:29,256 --> 01:40:34,256
So you feel, yes, this can happen.It will happen.
所以你觉得，是的，这是可能发生的。它会发生的。
1360
01:40:35,006 --> 01:40:37,048
That great saying, you know:
那句名言，你知道：
1361
01:40:37,131 --> 01:40:42,881
'The moral arc of the universe is long,but it bends towards justice.'
“宇宙的道德弧线很长，但它会向正义弯曲。”
（马丁路德金引用十九世纪美国牧师西奥多.帕克的布道词）
1362
01:40:42,964 --> 01:40:48,340
Well, I think it does bend towards...It does bend towards justice.
嗯，我认为它确实倾向于...它确实倾向于正义。
1363
01:40:49,839 --> 01:40:53,506
At the same time, because of Vietnam,
与此同时，因为越南战争，
1364
01:40:53,589 --> 01:40:56,798
you have this horrible feeling right now
你现在有一种可怕的感觉，
1365
01:40:56,881 --> 01:41:01,340
because the bottom line of what you're reading
about how they're making the decisions
因为你所读到的是，关于他们如何做决定的底线，
1366
01:41:01,423 --> 01:41:06,672
to send all these troops to Vietnam,almost 600,000 men.
向越南派遣了近60万人的军队。
1367
01:41:07,465 --> 01:41:09,839
All these horrible casualties.
所有这些可怕的伤亡。
1368
01:41:11,256 --> 01:41:14,964
The overall feeling you have is,look what government can do,
你的整体感觉是，看看政府能做什么，
1369
01:41:15,048 --> 01:41:19,881
the power of government,both for good, and you could say for ill.
政府的权力，既有好的，也有坏的。
1370
01:41:20,589 --> 01:41:24,298
I don't know if you're hopeful or in some ways more worried.
我不知道，你是满怀希望，还是更担心。
1371
01:41:24,798 --> 01:41:30,506
You think of wars and the horror of wars,
you know, 'Let loose the dogs of war.'
你想到战争和战争的恐怖，你知道，“松开这些，用于战争的狗。”
1372
01:41:30,589 --> 01:41:34,756
How easy it is for a great power to let that loose.
对于一个大国来说，让这种情绪释放，是多么容易啊。
1373
01:41:35,340 --> 01:41:39,756
So you're more in fear...Not in fear or in hope...
所以，你更害怕...不是在恐惧中，也不是在希望中...
1374
01:41:40,481 --> 01:41:45,381
but in awe of what government can do.
而是对政府的能做的，感到敬畏。
1375
01:41:52,923 --> 01:41:55,298
It's an amazing thing that he set out to do.
这是他着手做的一件，了不起的事情。
1376
01:41:55,381 --> 01:41:58,340
And I don't think writing gets easier.
我不认为，写作会变得更容易。
1377
01:41:59,423 --> 01:42:03,215
It just doesn't. It's a daunting task.
它就是不容易。这是一项艰巨的任务。
1378
01:42:03,298 --> 01:42:05,256
And he has real courage.
他有真正的勇气。
1379
01:42:05,340 --> 01:42:10,298
But he also needs to have sitzfleisch to finish.
但他也需要有“坐定的忍耐力”来完成。
1380
01:42:10,382 --> 01:42:14,881
It's a rough, rough, lonely project.
这是一个艰难、艰难、孤独的项目。
1381
01:42:16,006 --> 01:42:17,506
But the world is better for it.
但世界，因此变得更美好。
1382
01:42:22,256 --> 01:42:24,839
Whenever Bob Gottlieb is in the office,
只要鲍勃.戈特利布在办公室，
1383
01:42:24,923 --> 01:42:29,215
乔丹.帕夫林，克诺普夫出版社总编
there's a very clear shift in the electrical current at Knopf.
克诺普夫出版社的“电流”，就会发生明显的变化。
1384
01:42:30,298 --> 01:42:31,506
And that's just Bob.
这只是鲍勃。
1385
01:42:31,589 --> 01:42:34,756
So Bob and Robert Caro together,
所以鲍勃和罗伯特·卡罗一起，
1386
01:42:34,839 --> 01:42:40,090
sitting in a room,hunched over a stack of pages,
坐在一个房间里，弓着背看一摞书，
1387
01:42:40,756 --> 01:42:44,090
you could feel this thrumming electricity.
你能感觉到“电流”的跳动。
1388
01:42:44,173 --> 01:42:45,881
Their heads were very close together.
他们的头靠得很近。
1389
01:42:45,964 --> 01:42:49,881
Their voices were rising and falling with some intensity.
他们的声音断断续续，有些激烈。
1390
01:42:49,964 --> 01:42:56,547
You felt like you were kind of watching an act
of literary history as it unfolded.
你感觉自己像是在观看一场，文学史的表演。
1391
01:42:57,964 --> 01:43:00,256
I don't think that could ever happen again.
我觉得，这种事不会再发生了。
1392
01:43:00,340 --> 01:43:01,756
It was a particular...
这是一个特别的...
1393
01:43:01,839 --> 01:43:07,506
I mean, publishing is so changed from when this contract first began,
我的意思是，从合同开始的时候起，出版业就发生了很大的变化，
1394
01:43:08,340 --> 01:43:11,589
and the contract has been renegotiated so many times.
而且，合同已经重新谈判了很多次。
1395
01:43:11,673 --> 01:43:16,547
Publishing suffers from some of the same
problems that other businesses do.
出版业和其他行业一样，也面临着同样的问题。
1396
01:43:16,631 --> 01:43:18,256
Short-term profits.
注重短期效益。
1397
01:43:18,340 --> 01:43:24,382
Are they really going to make a kind of commitment that this took?
他们真的会做出这样的承诺吗？
1398
01:43:26,131 --> 01:43:28,631
Will they wait,and will they support it financially?
他们会等待吗？他们会在经济上，支持它吗？
1399
01:43:28,714 --> 01:43:32,714
I doubt that it could ever happen again.
我怀疑这种事，不会再发生了。
1400
01:43:33,382 --> 01:43:34,798
Do it the hard way
用艰难的方式去做，
1401
01:43:34,881 --> 01:43:36,965
And it's easy sailing
一帆风顺，
1402
01:43:37,048 --> 01:43:40,547
Do it the hard way And you're bound to please
用艰难的方式去做，你一定会取悦
1403
01:43:40,631 --> 01:43:42,456
That's Rodgers and Hart.
那是罗杰斯和哈特。
（百老汇的两位作词作曲的搭档）
1404
01:43:42,673 --> 01:43:44,215
Only the soft way
只有柔和的方式
1405
01:43:44,298 --> 01:43:45,131
Is that true?
真的吗？
1406
01:43:45,215 --> 01:43:46,631
Has a chance of failing
有失败的可能吗
1407
01:43:46,714 --> 01:43:47,923
How do you know that?
你怎么知道的？
1408
01:43:48,006 --> 01:43:50,839
Chet Baker.Because when I went to school in Paris,
切特贝克。因为我在巴黎上学的时候，
1409
01:43:50,923 --> 01:43:55,423
- every week, you sent me a tape... - Right.
每周你都会寄给我一盘磁带... -没错。
1410
01:43:56,048 --> 01:43:56,881
Of jazz.
爵士乐的。
1411
01:43:56,965 --> 01:43:59,006
- I was a good daddy. - You were.
-我是个好爸爸。 -是的。
1412
01:44:06,298 --> 01:44:09,131
So, what is it like to be 89?
那么，89岁是什么感觉呢？
1413
01:44:09,215 --> 01:44:12,547
I don't feel bad about being old.
我并不因为变老而难过。
1414
01:44:13,257 --> 01:44:18,881
I feel bad because being old means
you're heading faster and faster toward not being at all.
我感觉很糟糕，因为变老意味着，你正越来越快地走向虚无。
1415
01:44:18,965 --> 01:44:22,839
That's the problem.But it's not the condition of being old.
这就是问题所在。但这不是变老的条件。
1416
01:44:26,340 --> 01:44:31,839
Bob Caro has a different problem,
which he has this very, very important,
鲍勃·卡罗有一个不同的问题，他有一个非常非常重要，
1417
01:44:31,923 --> 01:44:35,965
crucial project that needs to be finished.
至关重要的项目，需要完成。
1418
01:44:37,048 --> 01:44:43,423
So,of course,it's such an amazing accomplishment.
所以，这当然是一项了不起的成就。
1419
01:44:43,506 --> 01:44:51,173
I would love to be able to hang up my pencil
on the last page of the last volume of his Lyndon Johnson.
我希望能把铅笔，挂在他的林登·约翰逊的最后一卷的，最后一页上。
1420
01:44:52,673 --> 01:44:54,839
But that's, again, in the lap of the gods.
但这还是要由上帝来决定。
1421
01:44:55,756 --> 01:44:58,548
You're really asking me,do you think I'm gonna die?
你是在问我，你觉得我会死吗？
1422
01:44:58,631 --> 01:45:00,131
When you think I'm gonna die.
当你觉得我要死了。
1423
01:45:00,215 --> 01:45:03,340
So I prefer not to answer that.You'll have to...
所以我不想回答这个问题。你得...
1424
01:45:05,423 --> 01:45:08,548
I don't think it does me any good to think about that.
我不认为去想那件事，对我有任何好处。
1425
01:45:08,631 --> 01:45:11,714
I don't want to rush it, you see? It would be easy to rush it.
我不想操之过急，明白吗？这很容易操之过急。
1426
01:45:11,798 --> 01:45:15,589
You get to sections and you say,
'Well, if I leave this out of the book,
当你读到章节的时候，你会说，“好吧，如果我把这个从书里删掉，
1427
01:45:15,673 --> 01:45:20,340
no one will know it's not there
because no one's written about it before.'
没有人会知道它不在那里，因为以前，没有人写过它。”
1428
01:45:20,423 --> 01:45:25,631
So now you say,'I could finish this book faster,
and I could write each section faster.
所以现在你说，“我可以更快地完成这本书，我可以更快地写完每一部分。
1429
01:45:25,714 --> 01:45:29,298
I don't have to rewrite them as many times as I do.'
我不需要重写那么多遍。”
1430
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:35,506
But I wanna write them as many times
as I do if I want the books to endure.
但如果我想让这些书流传下去，我想写很多遍。
1431
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:45,631
Finally, in our day of these technologies,books aren't lost.
最后，在我们这个技术发达的时代，书籍不会丢失。
1432
01:45:45,714 --> 01:45:51,090
So that you can plant a seed
by either writing a book or editing a book,
所以你可以通过写书或编辑书来种下一颗种子，
1433
01:45:51,173 --> 01:45:57,881
and it can grow and blossom and fade and die.
它可以生长，开花，枯萎，死亡。
1434
01:45:57,965 --> 01:46:02,006
But it isn't dead because I am constantly coming upon books
但它并没有死，因为我不断地读到
1435
01:46:02,090 --> 01:46:05,506
written 30 or 60 or 150 years ago,
30年、60年或150年前写的书，
1436
01:46:06,173 --> 01:46:07,881
and they are real for me.
它们对我来说是真实的。
1437
01:46:07,965 --> 01:46:10,714
So they still have a life after they're dead.
所以，他们死后，还有生命。
1438
01:46:16,506 --> 01:46:20,798
You said working on this film has
changed your relationship with my father?
你说拍这部电影，改变了你和我父亲的关系？
1439
01:46:21,189 --> 01:46:22,589
Yeah.
是的。
1440
01:46:23,965 --> 01:46:28,090
Our relationship is friendlier than it's ever been.
我们的关系，比以往任何时候都好。
1441
01:46:28,173 --> 01:46:32,173
Of course, that might be because I haven't handed in another book.
当然，那可能是因为，我还没有交另一本书稿。
1442
01:46:32,257 --> 01:46:37,673
You know,
the work of literature that really means the most to me is King Lear.
你知道，对我意义最大的文学作品是《李尔王》。
1443
01:46:37,756 --> 01:46:42,798
So I often go to that for reference to what I'm thinking, feeling.
所以，我经常去读它，用来参考我的想法和感觉。
1444
01:46:42,881 --> 01:46:44,790
You know, I think at this point,
你知道，我认为在这一点上，
1445
01:46:44,890 --> 01:46:51,990
my role with Bob is what Cordelia says about her role with King Lear.
我对鲍勃的角色，很像科迪莉亚对李尔王的角色。
（李尔王的三女儿，善良真诚，受到驱逐后，仍能率兵救父）
1446
01:46:52,173 --> 01:46:54,965
You know, it's to 'love and be silent.'
你知道，这就是“爱而沉默”。
1447
01:46:58,631 --> 01:47:00,298
Now, that's a good ending.
你看，这是个好结局。
1448
01:47:02,756 --> 01:47:04,756
- It's great. - 'Cause I'm editing.
-说得太棒了。 -因为我在剪辑。
1449
01:47:06,257 --> 01:47:07,714
'Cause that's what I do.
因为这就是我的工作。
1450
01:47:08,340 --> 01:47:10,881
What's the time now? Okay, it's 11:25.
现在几点了？好了，11点25分。
1451
01:47:12,923 --> 01:47:15,382
My father was right that this is a good ending.
我父亲说得对，这是个好结局。
1452
01:47:15,465 --> 01:47:17,965
Or at least I wasn't gonna fight him on it.
至少我没打算跟他争论这事。
1453
01:47:19,090 --> 01:47:21,589
The film has been five years in the making.
这部电影已经制作了五年。
1454
01:47:24,506 --> 01:47:26,923
Volume 5 is not finished,
第五卷还没有完成，
1455
01:47:27,006 --> 01:47:30,756
but the two Bobs finally agreed to let me into the editing room.
但那两个鲍勃，最后还是同意，让我进编辑室。
1456
01:47:33,465 --> 01:47:34,923
With some restrictions.
但有种种制约。
1457
01:47:35,006 --> 01:47:37,382
Do I look like I'm girding for battle?
我看起来像是，准备去吵架的人吗？
1458
01:47:44,715 --> 01:47:46,006
Hi, Bob.
嗨，鲍勃。
1459
01:47:47,465 --> 01:47:48,465
Oh, sorry.
哦，对不起。
1460
01:47:48,548 --> 01:47:50,090
Boom! Is that a boom?
嘭！这很突然吗？
1461
01:47:52,881 --> 01:47:53,881
Nice to see you.
很高兴见到你。
1462
01:47:54,706 --> 01:47:56,798
- How are you feeling? - Very well.
-你感觉怎么样？ -很好。
1463
01:47:56,881 --> 01:48:00,840
Let me go find a pencil.And maybe some coffee.
让我去找一支铅笔。再来点咖啡。
1464
01:48:00,923 --> 01:48:04,798
- So we are both looking for a pencil. - Looking for a pencil.
-所以我们都在找铅笔。 -找铅笔。
1465
01:48:04,881 --> 01:48:07,673
- We're looking for a pencil. - Hi. You have a pencil?
-我们在找一支铅笔。 -嗨。你有铅笔吗？
1466
01:48:09,424 --> 01:48:10,798
I do not.
我没有。
1467
01:48:12,340 --> 01:48:15,340
I love that. I don't. Can I help...?
我喜欢这样。我没有。我能帮你...？
1468
01:48:15,424 --> 01:48:18,965
- A pen? A Sharpie? Okay. - No, we have all those things.
-钢笔？记号笔？行吗。 -不，这些东西我们都有。
1469
01:48:19,048 --> 01:48:20,840
It's a pencil. We'll find one.
就要一支铅笔。我们会找到的。
1470
01:48:21,631 --> 01:48:23,215
Maybe this way is better.
也许，往这边走，会找到的。
1471
01:48:27,424 --> 01:48:29,923
Who has a pencil? We need a pencil.
谁有铅笔？我们需要一支铅笔。
1472
01:48:30,007 --> 01:48:31,923
- You know what we can do? We can walk... - Yes.
-你知道我们能做什么吗？我们可以走路... -是的。
1473
01:48:32,631 --> 01:48:35,965
And if you need an eraser,this one's better than the other.
如果你需要带橡皮擦的，这个比另一个更好。
1474
01:48:36,048 --> 01:48:38,424
- An eraser. And an eraser. - Yeah.
-橡皮擦。还有一块橡皮擦。 -是的。
1475
01:48:38,506 --> 01:48:41,881
It's a mechanical pencil. Is that okay?
No? You need a regular pencil?
这是一支自动铅笔。可以吗？没有?你需要一支普通铅笔吗？
1476
01:48:41,965 --> 01:48:43,548
- A yellow pencil. - Here.
-一支黄色的铅笔。 -这里。
1477
01:48:43,631 --> 01:48:46,631
All right, so we're getting a yellow pencil and...
好吧，我们拿一支黄色铅笔，然后...
1478
01:48:46,715 --> 01:48:51,424
-I have to sharpen it real quick.-I can sharpen it. I can sharpen it.
-我得快速削尖它。 -我可以削尖它。我可以削尖它。
1479
01:48:51,506 --> 01:48:55,548
Okay,as long as it works.Not sure the last time someone used it.
好吧，只要管用就行。不知道上次有人用它是什么时候。
1480
01:48:55,631 --> 01:48:57,465
That's one of your talents.
这是你的天赋之一。
1481
01:49:05,257 --> 01:49:07,965
Okay. We're ready to go.
好吧。我们准备好了。
1482
01:49:11,965 --> 01:49:17,465
Bob, can you tell us why you feel it's important
to have no sound in this session?
鲍勃，你能告诉我们，为什么你觉得在这个环节中，没有声音很重要吗？
1483
01:49:17,548 --> 01:49:20,640
Why no sound in the film?
为什么这段影片里，不能有声音？
1484
01:49:20,857 --> 01:49:24,089
It's sort of a private thing, you know?
这是私事，你知道吗？
1485
01:49:24,756 --> 01:49:27,407
So... Okay, we'll turn off the microphones.
所以...好了，我们把麦克风关了。
1486
01:49:27,707 --> 01:49:37,207
《用笨方法来做》是由切特·贝克演唱，由劳伦兹·哈特和理查德·罗杰斯
创作词曲的歌曲，收录于其专辑《美好世界》中，该专辑于1987年1月1日正式发行
1487
01:49:38,907 --> 01:49:42,807
# Do it the hard way and it's easy sailing #
# 用笨方法，而会一帆风顺的 #
1488
01:49:44,807 --> 01:49:49,107
# Do it the hard way and it's hard to loose #
# 用笨方法，有时不容易失去 #
1489
01:49:49,907 --> 01:49:55,107
# Only the soft way has a chance of failing #
# 只有小聪明，才会有失败的可能 #
1490
01:49:55,807 --> 01:50:00,807
# You have to choose #
# 你自己选吧 #
1491
01:50:01,807 --> 01:50:05,807
# I tried the hard way when I tried to get you #
# 当我在追求你时，用了笨方法 #
1492
01:50:06,607 --> 01:50:11,907
# You took the soft way when you said, "We'll see" #
# 你说“来日方长”时，不过是肤浅的狡黠 #
1493
01:50:12,107 --> 01:50:19,807
# Darling, now I let you do it the hard way #
# 亲爱的，现在换你用艰难的笨方法了 #
1494
01:50:20,207 --> 01:50:27,107
# Now that you want me #
# 现在，是你想要我 #
1495
01:50:28,307 --> 01:53:54,307
翻译：hardstick 校订：hardstick 时间轴：hardstick